i was in the charismatic movement a couple of decades ago and let me tell ya. not everything that you hear or see its real or comes from God.
personally i was told by a couple of "prophets" stuff that never came about. i was enthusiastic until this happened to me. there's also alot of hypocrisy among the church members too. i saw backstabbings, murmuring about each other, pastors using people for financial gain or "fame/recognition"
to the point that i question the whole experience, yes there were faithful people as well.
but i'm on the fence on this topic but i'm leaning that the real tongues have long ceased to exist. lots of miracles and spiritual manifestations reminds me of kundalini yoga.
there's nowhere in the bible where we are told that people were "slain in the spirit" as they say. something that i did experience myself btw. i do question the whole thing
The right thing to do is to be like a good Berean and search the word for whether these things be so.
agreed, however much of the practices of the charismatics are simply heretical only a few you can find biblical support such laying out the hands, anointing the sick with oil
but there are other stuff that is way out there. like i said the "slaying in the spirit" (do they murder your spirit such thing cannot be found in the bible) releasing the anointing or releasing God as if he was a prisoner that needs to be released by the lack of faith of some. there are folks that even go in to tombs to get the anointing of death pastors and the like. that borders on necromancy
then there are the fake miracles. some claim that their teeth/tooth are healed with Gold and then you find out that there is worse person that cant even get healing. i personally witnessed this fraud.
once upon a time, a sister in christ invited me to this pentecostal church. as soon as i got in to the bus i felt really weird.for one there was a guy that claimed that he was brought back from the dead. dude had red eyes that spooked the crap out of me. then after we arrived to the church, we waited for the pastor to come and start the service. he did and 15 minutes later after a few chantings to the lord the "healing testimonials" began to come forward. the most incredible case of the night was this guy in which supposedly got dental fillings of gold from the lord as he was telling his testimony i looked by my side there was this young woman with a deformity on her head because she had water in her brain. i really felt bad for her there was this guy that supposedly got healed for something so menial when there was a stronger case for a healing present. when i saw this, i told to myself God isnt here. the real God will do the difficult cases.
not to say that God will not heal lets see a cold or a fever. but come on. jesus always healed the most difficult cases. as a mattter of fact, the fact that he could one people born without eyes or resurrect the dead tell us the true heart of God.
charismatics often fail by reproducing what the apostles did
I'm not discounting your experiences, I get that they happened as you witnessed it. It still doesn't mean that the power of God and the Gifts he bestows are not real or have ceased.
Those that are healed, are as God wills, not as men will.
Just as was written in 2 Timothy 4: 20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick
And also just as in Matthew 13: 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
1 Corinthians 12 is very much about the gifts and how we should pursue them. And it was written the he admonished those who were acting un-orderly in 1 Corinthians 14.
Which leads to the final point, that I agree with you that there are charismatic abuses in what are some of the Pentecostal churches. Yet I can only say that by way of second hand, I haven't been to any of them myself, but it is something I've heard more than once from more than one person. (and I've seen and heard a-plenty on the tubes and the radio)
In my growth in the word, I have found the Remnant Radio folks to be fairly fundamental and conservative when it comes to doctrine and the practicing of the gifts of the spirit, as opposed to 'liberal' or 'reserved'.
I think it is important that we evaluate people as individuals and churches individually. We are not all the same, and not all churches are equal.
Those that are healed, are as God wills, not as men will.
i dont question the fact that God cam heal what i'm questioning are the charlatans than claim to heal in his name. let me tell a testimony. 5-6 years ago i began having this sharp pain and colic that would traverse my belly and end up in my upper back. it was terrible. this happened for quite sometime until one day i had to go to the ER because the pain was unbearable. as soon as i got to the hospital i began to have another episode so i have to go to the restroom and cry out with tears to God. he heard me a few hours later the nurse came in to my room and told me that i had gallbladder stones. fast forward a few days and my PCP doctor send me to a surgeon buddy of his who operated on his mother. 3 weeks later i had surgery for gallbladder removal then the doctor told my family that i had the most dangerous stones of them all which are the tiny ones that can get stuck in the duct. if that had happened it would have had complications. so in a nutshell God used medicine in order to heal me of that malaise.
so, yes i believe that God does hear prayer and heals.
And also just as in Matthew 13: 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
but he still healed a few so while faith is important God its not shackled by your faith or lack thereof. what happened there is that without faith is impossible to please God that's why he couldnt heal but the people there didnt believe. is not that he needed their faith to be healed. did God needed faith to give mana to Israelites or when moses hit the rock instead of speaking to it,the miracle was performed even in the midst of much rebellion and disobedience
charismatics err too much when they teach that God needs your faith in order for him to accomplish his will. that's NONSENSE, YOU DONT RELEAASE GOD OR DO ANYTHING SINCE EVERYTHING THAT COMES FROM YOU IS AS FILTHY RAGS. healing and salvation (both are linked btw) comes by an act of grace thru faith.
1 Corinthians 12 is very much about the gifts and how we should pursue them. And it was written the he admonished those who were acting un-orderly in 1 Corinthians 14.
and yet the bible tells us plain that gifts will cease
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
this is proof that the apostle knew that the gifts werent eternal, these gifts were given by the holy spirit to early church for edification and its establishment.
btw, its true that in a church setting when someone is speaking in tongues there must be someone who should have the gift to translate and as far i know we dont see this gift much in the charismatic churches
1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
this is why an interpreter must be present at the services. we dont see this much dont we. the churches are a mess
anyways, i really had fun discussing this topic with you because its important for us believers.
regardless, if you believe that tongues are current or not that doesnt add or retract from your salvation.
I think it is important that we evaluate people as individuals and churches individually. We are not all the same, and not all churches are equal.
so, yes i believe that God does hear prayer and heals.
Yes and amen.
and yet the bible tells us plain that gifts will cease
I don't believe that's what the Bible is telling us there; What is their purpose even?
1 Corinthians 14: 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
Does the church no longer need edification? Let's look at the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10
1 Corinthians 13: 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
So, he says when we see him face to face, and when he shall know even as he is known. This is at Jesus' return.
He follows in the next chapter with the a-fore mentioned quote (1 Corinthians 14:12) and the following as well;
1 Corinthians 14: 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Otherwise, I do agree, as far as interpreters are concerned. I have heard of them in some churches, so it's just not the case that all charismatics are like that.
I too have had more than one personal experience that had shown me the power of the Lord. More than enough to convince me that the gifts are indeed real, in whatever form the Holy Spirit may manifest them.
I attend a New Independent Fundamental Baptist Church BTW. For the most part, they are fairly cessationist, which I am not, personally. Glad to be able to discuss it.
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz 1 point 10 monthsJul 5, 2023 18:47:58 ago (+1/-0)
personally i was told by a couple of "prophets" stuff that never came about. i was enthusiastic until this happened to me. there's also alot of hypocrisy among the church members too. i saw backstabbings, murmuring about each other, pastors using people for financial gain or "fame/recognition"
to the point that i question the whole experience, yes there were faithful people as well.
but i'm on the fence on this topic but i'm leaning that the real tongues have long ceased to exist. lots of miracles and spiritual manifestations reminds me of kundalini yoga.
there's nowhere in the bible where we are told that people were "slain in the spirit" as they say. something that i did experience myself btw. i do question the whole thing
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 [op] 0 points 10 monthsJul 5, 2023 19:19:57 ago (+0/-0)
But I don't believe that the abuses that can and do occur mean that the proper and appropriate use of the gifts doesn't exist.
It really does make for an environment that really can put you on your toes, for want of discernment.
The right thing to do is to be like a good Berean and search the word for whether these things be so.
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz 1 point 10 monthsJul 5, 2023 23:27:41 ago (+1/-0)
agreed, however much of the practices of the charismatics are simply heretical only a few you can find biblical support such laying out the hands, anointing the sick with oil
but there are other stuff that is way out there. like i said the "slaying in the spirit" (do they murder your spirit such thing cannot be found in the bible) releasing the anointing or releasing God as if he was a prisoner that needs to be released by the lack of faith of some. there are folks that even go in to tombs to get the anointing of death pastors and the like. that borders on necromancy
then there are the fake miracles. some claim that their teeth/tooth are healed with Gold and then you find out that there is worse person that cant even get healing. i personally witnessed this fraud.
once upon a time, a sister in christ invited me to this pentecostal church. as soon as i got in to the bus i felt really weird.for one there was a guy that claimed that he was brought back from the dead. dude had red eyes that spooked the crap out of me. then after we arrived to the church, we waited for the pastor to come and start the service. he did and 15 minutes later after a few chantings to the lord the "healing testimonials" began to come forward. the most incredible case of the night was this guy in which supposedly got dental fillings of gold from the lord as he was telling his testimony i looked by my side there was this young woman with a deformity on her head because she had water in her brain. i really felt bad for her there was this guy that supposedly got healed for something so menial when there was a stronger case for a healing present. when i saw this, i told to myself God isnt here. the real God will do the difficult cases.
not to say that God will not heal lets see a cold or a fever. but come on. jesus always healed the most difficult cases. as a mattter of fact, the fact that he could one people born without eyes or resurrect the dead tell us the true heart of God.
charismatics often fail by reproducing what the apostles did
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 [op] 0 points 10 monthsJul 6, 2023 00:04:44 ago (+0/-0)
Those that are healed, are as God wills, not as men will.
Just as was written in 2 Timothy 4:
20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick
And also just as in Matthew 13:
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
1 Corinthians 12 is very much about the gifts and how we should pursue them. And it was written the he admonished those who were acting un-orderly in 1 Corinthians 14.
Which leads to the final point, that I agree with you that there are charismatic abuses in what are some of the Pentecostal churches. Yet I can only say that by way of second hand, I haven't been to any of them myself, but it is something I've heard more than once from more than one person. (and I've seen and heard a-plenty on the tubes and the radio)
In my growth in the word, I have found the Remnant Radio folks to be fairly fundamental and conservative when it comes to doctrine and the practicing of the gifts of the spirit, as opposed to 'liberal' or 'reserved'.
I think it is important that we evaluate people as individuals and churches individually. We are not all the same, and not all churches are equal.
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz 1 point 10 monthsJul 6, 2023 01:45:04 ago (+1/-0)
i dont question the fact that God cam heal what i'm questioning are the charlatans than claim to heal in his name. let me tell a testimony. 5-6 years ago i began having this sharp pain and colic that would traverse my belly and end up in my upper back. it was terrible. this happened for quite sometime until one day i had to go to the ER because the pain was unbearable. as soon as i got to the hospital i began to have another episode so i have to go to the restroom and cry out with tears to God. he heard me a few hours later the nurse came in to my room and told me that i had gallbladder stones. fast forward a few days and my PCP doctor send me to a surgeon buddy of his who operated on his mother. 3 weeks later i had surgery for gallbladder removal then the doctor told my family that i had the most dangerous stones of them all which are the tiny ones that can get stuck in the duct. if that had happened it would have had complications. so in a nutshell God used medicine in order to heal me of that malaise.
so, yes i believe that God does hear prayer and heals.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
but he still healed a few so while faith is important God its not shackled by your faith or lack thereof. what happened there is that without faith is impossible to please God that's why he couldnt heal but the people there didnt believe. is not that he needed their faith to be healed. did God needed faith to give mana to Israelites or when moses hit the rock instead of speaking to it,the miracle was performed even in the midst of much rebellion and disobedience
charismatics err too much when they teach that God needs your faith in order for him to accomplish his will. that's NONSENSE, YOU DONT RELEAASE GOD OR DO ANYTHING SINCE EVERYTHING THAT COMES FROM YOU IS AS FILTHY RAGS. healing and salvation (both are linked btw) comes by an act of grace thru faith.
and yet the bible tells us plain that gifts will cease
this is proof that the apostle knew that the gifts werent eternal, these gifts were given by the holy spirit to early church for edification and its establishment.
btw, its true that in a church setting when someone is speaking in tongues there must be someone who should have the gift to translate and as far i know we dont see this gift much in the charismatic churches
this is why an interpreter must be present at the services. we dont see this much dont we. the churches are a mess
anyways, i really had fun discussing this topic with you because its important for us believers.
regardless, if you believe that tongues are current or not that doesnt add or retract from your salvation.
i agree
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 [op] 0 points 10 monthsJul 6, 2023 02:46:29 ago (+0/-0)*
Yes and amen.
I don't believe that's what the Bible is telling us there; What is their purpose even?
1 Corinthians 14:
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
Does the church no longer need edification? Let's look at the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10
1 Corinthians 13:
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
So, he says when we see him face to face, and when he shall know even as he is known. This is at Jesus' return.
He follows in the next chapter with the a-fore mentioned quote (1 Corinthians 14:12) and the following as well;
1 Corinthians 14:
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Otherwise, I do agree, as far as interpreters are concerned. I have heard of them in some churches, so it's just not the case that all charismatics are like that.
I too have had more than one personal experience that had shown me the power of the Lord. More than enough to convince me that the gifts are indeed real, in whatever form the Holy Spirit may manifest them.
I attend a New Independent Fundamental Baptist Church BTW. For the most part, they are fairly cessationist, which I am not, personally. Glad to be able to discuss it.
[ + ] The_Reunto
[ - ] The_Reunto 0 points 10 monthsJul 5, 2023 20:49:47 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz 0 points 10 monthsJul 5, 2023 23:10:06 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Portmanure
[ - ] Portmanure 0 points 10 monthsJul 5, 2023 19:01:28 ago (+0/-0)
(Hans shot first.)