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Thoughts on child discipline

submitted by MaryXmas to Fatherhood 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 15:59:25 ago (+17/-0)     (Fatherhood)

I have a 2 year old boy and I am generally responsible for discipline for misbehavior.
For something like touching the stove, I certainly warn, don't touch the stove but I would let my boy touch the stove to learn the lesson.
Don't smack the dog or don't kick the chickens is a lesson of empathy, and clean up your toys might be better identified as a lesson in morals.
How do you set guardrails for discipline? Is discipline the same as punishment?

I work to be authoritative but not authoritarian.

I have a weak father that was largely absent in discipline when I was growing up.


47 comments block


[ - ] Unreasonable 8 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 17:44:03 ago (+8/-0)

For dangerous situations you must train the key word, “DANGER!”

I.e. when the kid tries to stick a fork in the light socket you run over, swoop them up, yell “DANGER!!” whisk them away from the area, hug them tight and say “are you ok?”
Same for hot stoves, high places, running with scissors, etc… do this a half dozen times and the word “Danger” will be a trigger word to get them to stop. DO NOT ABUSE the word or it will lose meaning and then when the kid sprints across the road it won’t work.

For the most part if they are misbehaving it’s because you haven’t taught them to behave correctly. It’s your fault they are misbehaving so it’s your responsibility to teach first. Positive reinforcement is the single best method. Repetition is necessary. Use a reward system of tokens. They earn tokens for demonstrating good behavior. That’s it. The reward can be a toy, tv time, a favorite snack, etc… they buy the reward with the tokens they’ve earned. Ignore bad behavior as it’s mostly attention seeking behavior. If they are doing attention seeking behavior, I.e kicking your chair, screaming, poking, knocking things over, then go over the ways they can get your attention in a positive manner, I.e. put your hand on my arm and wait until I look at you. You have to give them positive attention for positive attention seeking behavior. If they ask politely to play, you play.

Do not ever repeat yourself. Have a punishment lined up, I.e. they will lose a token. Say your request once, but do it right. Go up to them, touch them, get them to look at you, then make your request. If they refuse they lose a token. Shouting across the room is not effective. You only shout if it’s DANGER. I.e. walk up to them, touch their arm, look them in the eye and say “it’s time to clean your toys, let’s sing the clean up song (make it a game)” if they say no, then you say, “I’m so sorry but you lose a token.” That’s it. Punishment enacted, clean them up yourself and move on with your day. It will take LOTS of repetition so don’t get discouraged. It will eventually work.

A single swat, not a spanking, a single firm swat is ok to use very judiciously if it is not a DANGER scenario but it is an important scenario. I.e. a meltdown in the grocery store where they are dumping everything off the shelf. You grab, you say a firm NO and you give a single firm swat. Follow up with a hug.

Most bad behavior comes from over tired or hungry. Always have loads of snacks. Kids get hungry all the time and they have meltdowns just because they have low blood sugar. Try getting them to eat something before you fully judge their behavior.


Teach first. Predetermined punishment second. Positive reinforcement of good behavior. Ignore attention seeking behavior, or at least understand it’s probably due to them being hungry.

When they’re older switch from tokens to money. Around 7 or 8 give them 25 cents to clean their room, 25 cents to vacuum the living room, etc. it teaches them the value of money, the reward of earning money and good behavior as well.

Source, it’s worked pretty well with my kids.

Spare the rod spoil the child is code word for “I was the result of narcissistic abuse as a kid and instead of breaking the cycle of abuse I embraced it.”

[ - ] Gowithit 3 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:21:48 ago (+3/-0)

Most bad behavior comes from over tired or hungry.

I did not know this with my first. Learned it on the 2nd one and is something that should be more widely taught.

[ - ] Unreasonable 5 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:27:32 ago (+5/-0)

One of the best pieces of advice I’ve heard is, “they’re not GIVING you a hard time, they are HAVING a hard time”

[ - ] Fascinus 4 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:49:47 ago (+4/-0)

This is an adjustment that many new parents run into.

One of the greatest gifts of fatherhood is learning to live for others. It's no longer strictly about me.

[ - ] Ragnar 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:51:59 ago (+2/-0)

This is pretty good

[ - ] Unreasonable 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:46:12 ago (+1/-0)

The last piece of advice I have right now is to teach calming techniques. They will get emotional at times. Use the “smell your flower, blow out your candle” technique. My 1 year old does this on his own so it works.

“Hey I can see you’re really upset about xyz, can we try smelling our flower?”

Hold up your pretend flower and give a big smell in, then hold up one finger as your candle and blow out your candle.

It’s very effective.

It’s so effective he will hold up his finger to get me to blow out his candle when I’m upset and angry.

[ - ] Fascinus 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:03:19 ago (+2/-0)

Use the “smell your flower, blow out your candle” technique

Haven't tried either of these and the recognition and description to them of their emotions, e.g. "I can see you’re really upset" is a regular feature in our dialogue. It helps equip them with the vocabulary to describe how they are feeling so that situations are more easily resolved.

Another example of this sort of thing that springs to mind is that we noticed our earlier kids got a lot less upset when we started teaching them ASL (American Sign Language) as infants.

In most instances, they were able to effectively communicate their needs in the moment. That took a lot of guessing out of the equation on our part and instilled greater confidence and trust on theirs, knowing that they had been understood at that their needs would be met shortly.

[ - ] MaryXmas [op] 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:23:35 ago (+2/-0)

Agreed on the sign. I also used this quite extensively and it helped his language a lot.

[ - ] Ragnar -1 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:51:40 ago (+1/-2)

Gay

[ - ] Ragnar -1 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:50:54 ago (+1/-2)

That’s because you are a retarded bean dip

[ - ] Fascinus 3 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:49:04 ago (+3/-0)

Most bad behavior comes from over tired or hungry.

You make an excellent point here. Many times you can attribute the behavior to a specific cause if you're paying close enough attention.

For example, one of our youngest will act up so that we will notice that he needs a diaper change. None of our other kids did this.

Another thing we noticed with the youngest few is that they'll act up if their tummy is not feeling good. Pay attention to what their bowel movements look like, e.g. if they're having frequent diarrhea, then there may be a dietary issue at play.

[ - ] MaryXmas [op] 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:33:06 ago (+2/-0)

The issue I have is that it is never appropriate to have a melt-down in a grocery store, even if you are a hungry sheboon. It is finding that line of when it is your lack of planning as a parent vs. the kids behavior. I don't really think there is a clear answer.

[ - ] Fascinus 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:39:58 ago (+1/-0)

That's actually one the worst parts for me; knowing that I have to address the behavior and that it's my fault for putting them in a bad situation to begin with.

Some of the best learning experiences we have as parents come out of situations like this.

[ - ] La_Chalupacabra 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:48:43 ago (+1/-0)

Posts like this are why we need a save post feature.

[ - ] MaryXmas [op] 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:30:21 ago (+1/-0)

I am actually very encouraged by all the great feedback. It's almost like there are very few resources for dads trying to be good fathers and everyone is trying to learn it by themselves.

[ - ] Unreasonable 0 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 22:18:03 ago (+0/-0)

“How to talk so little kids will listen.” Great book.

Also learn NLP, that helps.

For meltdowns with pre-talkers I use pacing a lot. That’s when you mimic their crying and genuinely feel the feelings they’re having, then slowly change your mood and calm yourself down and they’ll copy you. Smell the flower and blow the candle works great even with my 1 year old. So try that. Sometimes little kids can get overwhelmed, especially in a grocery store. Locked up surrounded by colorful stuff. Food all around. Don’t be afraid to snag a banana and just give it to them to eat. You can always pay for it later.

They can’t control themselves, no working prefrontal cortex. YouTube on the phone can work when I’m desperate. I sing and clap with the little one. I thank God that pickup is a thing a lot.

[ - ] Fascinus 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 23:17:02 ago (+1/-0)

There should be a Save link directly to the right of the number of comments, underneath the post at the top of the page.

[ - ] Metanoid 0 points 10 monthsJun 25, 2023 06:53:54 ago (+0/-0)

I've had this tab open on my browser for a month now. Totally agree. Need a save post on here.

[ - ] deleted 0 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 21:40:38 ago (+0/-0)

deleted

[ - ] anrach 4 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 16:56:35 ago (+4/-0)

When he gets older, make sure to teach him the "Why?" of the rules along with the discipline. My father was an effective disciplinarian but a poor mentor, and that cost me dearly in terms of squandered time and bad decisions. Teach him what to cherish, what to avoid, and don't underestimate his ability to imbibe wisdom.

[ - ] Cmonthisismyname 3 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 17:11:35 ago (+3/-0)

I try to explain the first-level consequence (if you don't clean your room, it will be messy and you may step on toys and hurt yourself) and second-level consequences (if I step on toys in your room, I'm putting them in a bin in the garage and you can one back for each day your room is clean). My current (ever-evolving) method is focused on teaching that all actions have consequences, and inspiring the little ones to begin thinking about longer-term consequences. I think this will be the seed for a child to master self-discipline and delayed gratification. I wish someone would have taught me the same.

The consequence for not doing something I've told them to do is a time-out, not getting to go to grandma's house when the other kid goes, and sometimes a swat on the butt. Time-outs are the most effective so far.

[ - ] Fascinus 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 17:26:26 ago (+2/-0)

Time-outs are the most effective so far.

This has been our experience as well, though all but the youngest have earned a swat on the rear at one time or another. This is usually reserved for the occasional situations where they place themselves in danger, e.g. try to run out into the road, grab a knife off of the cutting board.

[ - ] Cmonthisismyname 0 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:17:38 ago (+0/-0)

The dangerous behavior gets an eye-level conversation with stern dad eyes and a stern voice about the danger they may have caused. I think/hope an intense, low-volume bit of instruction leaves a more lasting mark. Spankings I reserve for disrespect.

[ - ] Fascinus 3 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 17:09:25 ago (+3/-0)

Much the same, in terms of philosophy and approach.

In the instance of the stove, for example, natural consequences can be the best teachers. This is more of an opportunistic approach than a hard and fast rule - If one of them grabs a knife off of the cutting board, I'm not going to let them hang on to it long enough for natural consequences to occur.

Empathy is definitely my preferred angle of approach when they start getting rowdy. e.g. "When you hit the dog, it hurts his body and makes him sad". This is usually expressed as a follow-up after time in the corner.

[ - ] Aze 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:08:44 ago (+2/-0)

I believe that children are mirror for their parents. If they are acting up its because you've trained them to, whether you know it or not.

I spank, but only for defiance or disrespect, never for accidents, and I give lots of warnings that its coming. Also, If I say it, I have to follow through.

Kids are line seeking missiles. IE they find the line whatever that is then put their toes just a centimeter over it. They are shittesting you, don't fall for it. That is a spanking in my book, but normally a gentle one. All I am looking for is contrition. The second the kid knows he's wrong we are done. When it comes to a test of will, you must NEVER lose to the kid or they will rule you forever.

Once the kids are old enough to understand it, I start to give them a choice in the punishment. For example the kiddo was being a jerk to his sister and not listening to me, I warned twice and was ignored openly. Ok mom, pull the car over. Kid knows he's crossed the line now, and is instantly obeisant. Sorry kiddo it's too late and you know it. But he has a choice, one swat on the butt if he doesn't fight me, or three if I have to hold him down. Lots of sobbing and attempts at negotiation, but ultimately he turned around and took it like a man. I was proud of him and barely swatted him at all. He still cried of course, but more from the fact that he didn't get away with it then the actual pain. Trust me I know, we rough house and box way way harder than that with no tears at all.

The girl is a different story, but with the boy I make lots of appeals to his manhood. "You are a man aren't you, and a man has to do what is right." Or "You messed up, and now you have to take your punishment like a man." This kind of thing normally gets the kiddo to admit he was wrong and take the meager punishment I'll met out without too much drama. This works because the boy sees the men around him and want desperately to be like us, and I want him to be like us too. So we do manmode stuff all the time, anything I can think of. Kid is all boy because of it. The punishments escalate if the kid digs his heels in and stays defiant. Remember, the punishment is feathered to the point it just barely compeles compliance. Swift, certain, sufficient.

The girl gets spanked a lot less, cus she is easier to break, IE the boy is wayyy more willful. I put the girl on top of the refrigerator and all bad behavior disappears. So ya, she gets a swat on the backside way less.

Now getting the others to go along with my discipline style or not step in cus "I'm being too harsh" is the real problem. Nothing infuriates me more than a women undermining me in front of the kids about discipline. Complete betrayal. Kids must never know that adults can be played against one another. But women in my experience are weak willed and too soft hearted to correctly tow the line, so it's inevitable the kids will walk on them, and oh boy have they. Oh how I've tried to correct it, but women today are a mess and don't/won't listen, and it's a crime to hit them, so I am left impotent to enforce my will. In before 10 people call me a pussy for not hitting her anyway and dealing with the fall out. Hell maybe you are even right. I war with myself about this often.

So ya, my is my single biggest complaint with child discipline isn't even with disciplining the children...

[ - ] SecretHitler 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 20:06:30 ago (+1/-0)

I put the girl on top of the refrigerator

😳

Haven't heard of this one before

[ - ] Metanoid 0 points 10 monthsJun 25, 2023 07:01:43 ago (+0/-0)

Now getting the others to go along with my discipline style or not step in cus "I'm being too harsh" is the real problem. Nothing infuriates me more than a women undermining me in front of the kids about discipline. Complete betrayal. Kids must never know that adults can be played against one another. But women in my experience are weak willed and too soft hearted to correctly tow the line, so it's inevitable the kids will walk on them, and oh boy have they. Oh how I've tried to correct it, but women today are a mess and don't/won't listen, and it's a crime to hit them, so I am left impotent to enforce my will.

Man, we married the same woman. They think they know shit, but they know shit.

[ - ] NeonGreen 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:07:35 ago (+2/-0)*

I've got a hyper active 3 year old that will continue to do things well past being verbally instructed not to. I swat his ass only when repeatedly being disobeyed.

The nice part is, now that he is older. I have stated using time outs and they are actually more painful then the swats.

I got to a point where he was like "go ahead hit me, get it over with, so I can get back to being bad".

But when you put them in time out. It's like a much deeper psychological warfare. I also set timers for the time out time and if he starts moaning or complaining... It starts over.

All and all at this point I save physical violence for more dangerous and a flippant negative behavior. It's much easier not to swat as they get older.

And I don't want my kid growing up with zero trauma it's not good for them.

You just really need to be very warm 10 or 15 minutes after stuff like that so they don't feel deeply affected and traumatized.

[ - ] Ragnar 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:47:58 ago (+2/-0)

Be firm but gentle. When it comes to dangerous situations, your face is going to say enough that the toddlers can understand not to do that again. You can smack the hand or the wrist lightly occasionally but smacking kids is counterproductive and builds lifelong resentment. Disciplining by rewards and/or time out works fine.
The most important thing is to explain why something is wrong or should not be done.

[ - ] Scrimmmy 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 17:03:45 ago (+2/-0)

Discipline is both. When a child misbehaves and you have to take corrective action through either corporal punishment or some other form of negative reinforcement that is instilling discipline in the child. The discipline that the parent needs to show example of is not punishing from a place of anger. Always be dispassionate in corporal punishment and then comforting afterwards.

[ - ] BushChuck 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 16:10:35 ago (+2/-0)

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

[ - ] KeepPoal4fags 1 point 11 monthsMay 24, 2023 00:26:15 ago (+1/-0)

All the best behaved kids in our family group receive corporal punishment for misbehavior. Not torturous whippings or anything, usually a stern hand upside the head if they test boundaries. There is a remarkable difference in both behavior and intelligence between the well-guided kids and the hippie "positive reinforcement only" fuckwits.

[ - ] Clubberlang 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 20:27:04 ago (+1/-0)

Touch that shit again and I'll put you through that fuckin wall always seemed to work in the 1980s

Or

Turn the TV off go outside or start cleaning was always effective.

[ - ] Clubberlang 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 20:23:31 ago (+1/-0)

Stop the shit before it becomes a problem was always my go to.

[ - ] PostWallHelena 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 17:42:23 ago (+3/-2)

I personally feel that discipline should be more about training and conditioning and less about punishment. You should do it in a detached manner like when training an animal. The goal should be to get a better response next time rather than to make them feel sorry.

I got whacked alot. The intention was to “break my will”, humiliate me even . It was a war of wills. I have never fully gotten over my resentment from that experience. It certainly didnt help me then and it didnt help me be a better adult. I hope you do better than my parents did in this area.

[ - ] Prairie 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:39:45 ago (+1/-0)

Agreed. A lot of discipline is necessary, but on the part of the parents. It's like people who yell at their dog even though dogs are very trainable. As long as the parent remembers that they are half of the dynamics, they can look to themselves for the solution (if they are the cause). I think a good principle is that any behavioral problem with a child is the fault of the parent (and not the lazy cause of "I didn't hit the child enough"). It's like hitting a computer because it's not doing what you want. No, that's not the solution.

[ - ] Fascinus 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:17:13 ago (+2/-0)

I think a good principle is that any behavioral problem with a child is the fault of the parent

I often say that there are no bad children, only bad parents. There may be some exceptions to this that haven't occurred to me and I believe that this is true in ordinary circumstances.

Oftentimes young children will engage in attention seeking behavior because they are anxious and want the attention of one or more parents for comfort.

One of the things I started doing early on with our kids was to have regular play time in the time between when I get home from work and when we eat dinner. If they're confident they'll get play time with dad, they'll be less demanding of your attention on an ad-hoc basis at other times and be less needy in general.

[ - ] MaryXmas [op] 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:35:18 ago (+1/-0)

I hear the same arguments for pit bulls!

[ - ] Fascinus 2 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 23:28:14 ago (+2/-0)

I'm generalizing for White children - No genetic predisposition toward low-empathy, violence and poor impulse control.

One of our neighbors down the road a ways has a pit bull. One of the sweetest dogs I've ever met and I still wouldn't trust him around my kids.

As the saying goes, a Tiger can't change its stripes.

[ - ] Ragnar 1 point 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:49:56 ago (+1/-0)

Stfu you are a barren childless hag. Get out of here. Although I don’t think kids should be smacked, you have nothing to offer

[ - ] deleted 0 points 11 monthsMay 24, 2023 07:22:36 ago (+0/-0)

deleted

[ - ] Razzoriel 0 points 11 monthsMay 24, 2023 06:08:56 ago (+0/-0)

Discipline incorporates punishment in drastic measures, yes, but its mostly about obedience. Positive reinforcement works better than punishment in general, but there are situations for both. You cannot positively reinforce your way out of him refusing to not climb a stair or making a mess somewhere.

Dont be afraid to overuse the word "no", but always remember to say "yes" to things which are important to them, such as spending time playing, reading a book together or simply sitting together to watch a funny cartoon.

[ - ] ModernGuilt 0 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 22:37:56 ago (+0/-0)

Go read John Locke's essay on the topic

[ - ] QueenAlt 0 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 21:26:37 ago (+0/-0)

There’s a huge difference between punishment and discipline. We discipline to teach so they can be safe and grow into functioning adults.

My biggest advice is consistency. If it’s no this time it is no EVERY time. Especially when they’re very young, if you give in even once it will be a fight every time. If you stay consistent they understand that no is the final word and that stops most arguments before they start. They won’t whine for snacks right before dinner if they know that it will never happen because you’ve set the standard by never allowing it. So they stop asking. The same goes with picking up toys before bed, etc.

I was a strict mom but made an effort to “catch” them being good or patient, or generous. There was no prize beyond praise but they always puffed up with pride when told how awesome they were for their actions or attitude.

Above all, forgive yourself when you aren’t perfect.

Please don’t ask me about grandparenting because all bets are off!

[ - ] Fascinus 1 point 11 monthsMay 24, 2023 00:57:34 ago (+1/-0)

I was a strict mom but made an effort to “catch” them being good or patient, or generous.

Thanks for mentioning this. We have done this with all of our children.

I feel like it's good for them to hear all kinds of feedback on their behavior. Not just corrective measures.

When not overly applied (one need not be sparing, so much as not effusive), praise can install confidence in your children. Additionally, I have found that, in ordinary situations (i.e. when the situation isn't particularly emotionally charged) our children are typically receptive to feedback in the moment. Other circumstances require a debrief after the fact.

Since they have grown to trust us to coach them instead of just harping on bad behavior, they tend to not tune us out.

[ - ] letsgetit 0 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 20:39:13 ago (+0/-0)*

Well for something like the stove it gets better when they are older. If possible expose the child's hand to the heat so they can feel what you are saying. That may be sufficient and they should remember it if it hurts.

If you want to go another step, if you have electric... make sure it's on low and test it yourself first but you would actually let the child touch the surface for a brief moment.

A lot of things in life it helps to ask the child why and not just give them the answers. Make them think critically about it and then drop a hint or two and then give the answer if necessary. Then ask them if they understand why. This is a big one as they grow up.

As far as discipline, one of the best outlets I've found is doing things physical. Not abuse or anything but like wrestling in an open area or arm wrestling. Both help channel stress and you can be semi-rough to teach the kid a lesson. This is what I mean by it gets better when they get older. Just be careful not to hurt the kid but I've used this in the past to let the child know I mean business. This works for boys and girls. It also teaches them physical boundaries and when it's too far. Using this approach it has limited spankings to a rarity.

Another good method is to remove the child from something they enjoy doing for 20mins, 1hour, 2 hours, etc. The child will be more likely to remember next time. If they don't then increase duration next time. We bought a plastic dice timer so they know they can get back on the computer, tv, game, etc.

I'd be worried with small children around a rooster. Those fuckers can be mean on random days and slash deep.

It's tough with a 2 year old. You have to child proof certain things because they may not remember or will do some shit like pull something down on themselves. Or run + trip and fall on something sharp or a hard floor.

Use your intuition to spot things proactively in your house and yard before they can become an issue. ie: put plastic plugs in electric outlets or something like removing sharp rocks/wood in the backyard.

[ - ] HelpAcct123 0 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 19:59:13 ago (+0/-0)

'Do not ever repeat yourself.'

A child knows when you're bluffing. Even kids respect strength of conviction.

[ - ] HonkyMcNiggerSpic 0 points 11 monthsMay 23, 2023 18:19:50 ago (+1/-1)

I smack their ass when they need it or they will grow up and be soy faggots