All fleshly descendants of Israel are of Israel, including those that might counted as Gentiles because of an unclear genealogy.
Dispensationalism relies on Talmudic interpretations of who counts as a Jew or not. It relies on attestations of genealogies that Christian scripture warns against (cf Titus 3:9).
No Dispensationalist will be able to explain whether Timothy was a Jew or a Gentile without appealing to Talmudism.
He was born of a Jewish mother and Greek father. This fits the matrilineal identity in Talmudic Judaism, which means by that standard alone, they would consider him a Jew. However, the Dispensationalist and Talmudic position also has a hate on for Christianity. They have a hard time contemplating whether a Jew could exist in the Church as Timothy did. They espouse the false belief that the Church is only of Gentiles.
The Israelites separated into two Kingdoms; The Northern Kingdom (‘Israel’) and the Southern Kingdom (‘Judah’) both of which sinned grievously and were cast out of the land. Both Kingdoms were adulterous and therefore were divorced losing the family name that Jacob had wrestled with Yahusha for, and they are only able to return by returning into covenant with Him by whom the name was given.
The Northern Kingdom became the lost sheep of the House of Israel scattered among the nations. Judah was also cast out, but was returned to the land in order that God’s plan could be fulfilled. After three and a half years of presenting the truth of salvation in the resurrected Messiah the remaining unconverted Jews were disinherited and eventually cast out of the land again. Since this time the covenant has been made available to the gentiles (the other nations) on the same terms as to Israel and Judah.
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. Romans 9 KJV
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. ROMANS 11 KJV
Strong's Greek: 1484. ἔθνος (ethnos) -- Nation, Gentile, people
Looks to me like it primarily refers to an ethnicity but came to mean a group with an ethos in common - possibly as the genetic groups had all mixed.
Even in the KJV we see that all Israel will be saved, but not all of Israel.
Even if someone could prove they were genetically "of Israel" and "of Judah", that would not be proof that they are part of "all Israel".
A group with an ethos in common
What do you mean by this?
- possibly as the genetic groups had all mixed.
If you are proposing we can determine whether someone is a descendant of Judah, we run into a problem. Genetic testing requires a comparison to a target sample. We don't have a sample of Judah's DNA. Meaning we make best guesses using ancient corpses that we hope accurately reflect a descendant of Judah. But even if our guess about the identity of the corpses was on point, genes can become diluted and effectively deleted from a gene code. It may turn out that not a single trace of Judah DNA may remain in a descendant of Judah. And then take into consideration that all scientific tests have a degree of uncertainty. When you see 0% on an ancestry test, the small print will inform you that the result is ± some amount. It is possible to have "0%" and still be a descendant.
For anyone that is a descendant, they are "of Israel" and "of Judah". This does not necessarily mean they belong to "all Israel" or "all Judah".
When we can establish that yes there is a difference between "All Israel" and "All of Israel", and that we acknowledge this is not talking about a nation, we are still left with the question, "What is 'all Israel?'" From that premise we can determine the people that the salvation applies to.
Do you have evidence that every self-identified Talmudic Jew is part of "all Israel"? If not, there is no guarantee for their salvation through scripture. Not Christian scripture anyway.
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2 KJV
Sorry, yes I’m agreeing that being ‘Jewish’, (or ‘Israelite’) in the post advent context is an entirely spiritual matter. I believe the covenant with Abraham was fleshly insofar as it applied to the seed (singular) descended from his lineage, and only in Him and by Him (Yahusha/Jesus) can anyone claim the standing of being a “Yahudiym/Yashareliym” (Judahite/Israelite).
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 1 monthMar 14, 2025 10:14:36 ago (+0/-0)
All fleshly descendants of Israel are of Israel, including those that might counted as Gentiles because of an unclear genealogy.
Dispensationalism relies on Talmudic interpretations of who counts as a Jew or not. It relies on attestations of genealogies that Christian scripture warns against (cf Titus 3:9).
No Dispensationalist will be able to explain whether Timothy was a Jew or a Gentile without appealing to Talmudism.
He was born of a Jewish mother and Greek father. This fits the matrilineal identity in Talmudic Judaism, which means by that standard alone, they would consider him a Jew. However, the Dispensationalist and Talmudic position also has a hate on for Christianity. They have a hard time contemplating whether a Jew could exist in the Church as Timothy did. They espouse the false belief that the Church is only of Gentiles.
[ + ] doginventer
[ - ] doginventer [op] 0 points 1 monthMar 14, 2025 12:53:37 ago (+0/-0)
Both Kingdoms were adulterous and therefore were divorced losing the family name that Jacob had wrestled with Yahusha for, and they are only able to return by returning into covenant with Him by whom the name was given.
The Northern Kingdom became the lost sheep of the House of Israel scattered among the nations.
Judah was also cast out, but was returned to the land in order that God’s plan could be fulfilled.
After three and a half years of presenting the truth of salvation in the resurrected Messiah the remaining unconverted Jews were disinherited and eventually cast out of the land again.
Since this time the covenant has been made available to the gentiles (the other nations) on the same terms as to Israel and Judah.
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Romans 9 KJV
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 1 monthMar 15, 2025 11:06:15 ago (+0/-0)
Paul wrote in a time prior to the destruction of the temple.
One school of thought is that all of the true lost sheep of Israel were reached and converted prior to the destruction.
Another school of thought is that some of the lost sheep (and presumably their descendants) remained lost even after the temple.
What evidence do you have that the second case is true?
One school of thought is that "Gentile" refers to ethnicities.
Another school of thought is that "Gentile" refers to nations.
Gen 10:5 suggests that "Gentile" is distinct from "nations", meaning the second school of thought is wrong.
"By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations." - Gen 10:5 KJV
[ + ] doginventer
[ - ] doginventer [op] 0 points 1 monthMar 15, 2025 14:10:28 ago (+0/-0)
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
ROMANS 11 KJV
Strong's Greek: 1484. ἔθνος (ethnos) -- Nation, Gentile, people
Looks to me like it primarily refers to an ethnicity but came to mean a group with an ethos in common - possibly as the genetic groups had all mixed.
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 1 monthMar 15, 2025 21:16:10 ago (+0/-0)
Even in the KJV we see that all Israel will be saved, but not all of Israel.
Even if someone could prove they were genetically "of Israel" and "of Judah", that would not be proof that they are part of "all Israel".
What do you mean by this?
If you are proposing we can determine whether someone is a descendant of Judah, we run into a problem. Genetic testing requires a comparison to a target sample. We don't have a sample of Judah's DNA. Meaning we make best guesses using ancient corpses that we hope accurately reflect a descendant of Judah. But even if our guess about the identity of the corpses was on point, genes can become diluted and effectively deleted from a gene code. It may turn out that not a single trace of Judah DNA may remain in a descendant of Judah. And then take into consideration that all scientific tests have a degree of uncertainty. When you see 0% on an ancestry test, the small print will inform you that the result is ± some amount. It is possible to have "0%" and still be a descendant.
For anyone that is a descendant, they are "of Israel" and "of Judah". This does not necessarily mean they belong to "all Israel" or "all Judah".
When we can establish that yes there is a difference between "All Israel" and "All of Israel", and that we acknowledge this is not talking about a nation, we are still left with the question, "What is 'all Israel?'" From that premise we can determine the people that the salvation applies to.
Do you have evidence that every self-identified Talmudic Jew is part of "all Israel"? If not, there is no guarantee for their salvation through scripture. Not Christian scripture anyway.
[ + ] Deleted
[ - ] deleted 0 points 1 monthMar 16, 2025 06:20:36 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] doginventer
[ - ] doginventer [op] 0 points 1 monthMar 16, 2025 14:39:03 ago (+0/-0)
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 2 KJV
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 1 monthMar 16, 2025 19:10:23 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] doginventer
[ - ] doginventer [op] 0 points 1 monthMar 17, 2025 07:31:43 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 1 point 1 monthMar 17, 2025 10:06:32 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] doginventer
[ - ] doginventer [op] 0 points 1 monthMar 17, 2025 10:39:22 ago (+0/-0)
I believe the covenant with Abraham was fleshly insofar as it applied to the seed (singular) descended from his lineage, and only in Him and by Him (Yahusha/Jesus) can anyone claim the standing of being a “Yahudiym/Yashareliym” (Judahite/Israelite).