Legalism is alive and well in most churches. One of the age old questions i always had, if you are saved by faith alone, is having faith itself not a works based salvation? For example, one of the counter arguments is that it's not works based but that works will complement the faith. Hence the use of works is proof of faith, meaning it's NOT faith based at all.
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 17:18:19 ago (+1/-0)
The heart determines. Paul is clear. Salvation is by faith alone lest no man boast. Faith is not a work it is a gift. Now it is valid to ask if faith is a gift than how are those without it punished etc. Legit question. But the point is we are not saved by law period.
What is the fruit of faith? I can't see your heart. Anyone can say they have faith.
Example: There is a chair. It looks rickety, but you tell me that in your heart you really have faith that the chair will support your weight. Yet...you won't sit down. Your lack of action is perceived by anyone observing as a lack of faith.
We can not judge the heart (motivation) of others. What we absolutely do is make sure we are pursuing productive relationships with people who share our beliefs and goals. You can't just believe what people tell you, so our Messiah gave us a thing we can judge...fruit...actions and outcomes.
If someone tells you they are a believer but there is nothing holy about them, they are either lying or incredibly new/immature in their faith. Christians do not act the same as the majority of people. You do not earn salvation...duh, but faith is active and salvation is a future event. You are promised eternal life, but you will likely die a physical death. you are saved from the second death. Your life as a believer should be more and more in line with the actions of the Messiah every day. Works are evidence of our salvation by faith. You HAVE to be Holy. That means set apart for a special purpose. It does not mean godly.
The Christian even though he sins is still a Christian is he not? Thus even a person will still sin after becoming Christians do you not accept this reality
Christians definitely sin, but sin is by definition "breaking the law" (1 John 3:4). Without law there is no such thing as sin. The law defines what exactly is sin. Do you accept that as reality? Or is sin just stuff you decided you don't approve of? Can you provide another biblical definition of sin than the one I provided?
The problem here is that I have had this convo before. Even if we agree that sin is breaking the law, you are going to fall back to love. Another heart issue. Telling my wife I love her and ignoring her needs is not love. Love is not "goodwill toward others". Love for God is defined many times as obeying God's commands. If Jesus was the Messiah, can He be guilty of breaking any of His Father's laws?
There are two ways. One leads to life, the other to death. Turns out, the way of life is obedience, and the way of death is disobedience. Jesus' name is not a magic spell.
[ - ] Love240 1 point 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 13:07:23 ago (+1/-0)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. - Romans 4:5-8
What you 'do' is works. You are not saved by 'obedience'. You are saved by belief, which is faith in Christ Jesus alone for the salvation from sin and death.
David knew this and preached it from the OT even.
Yet you who wrest with the word cannot seem to comprehend this.
you mean Galatians 5:6 => since in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor lack of circumcision is worth anything. All that matters is faith expressing itself through love.
or how about Matthew 7:21 => “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father.
maybe Matthew 19:16-19 => Then a man came forward and asked him, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to achieve eternal life?” 17 He said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. But if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said, “Which ones?” And Jesus answered, “You shall not kill. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness. 19 Honor your father and your mother. Love your neighbor as yourself.”
how about John 14:21 => Anyone who has received my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”
Sola Fides is debunked directly in scripture, and directly through the words of Jesus Himself.
[ - ] boekanier 1 point 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 05:09:40 ago (+1/-0)
there are billions of 'believers' in the world, yet, if you look at their words and actions, you would be more likely to think that they are the exact opposite of what they claim to be.
"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." - Rom 1:7-8
If faith can't be measured, what were people talking about when they spoke of the faith of those in Rome? Clearly faith can be measured and observed. How else would this be so unless by works?
It has literally nothing to do with salvation. Faith means religion dude. People were talking about the Christian faith all over. You legalistic types really try to make salvation hard preaching a false gospel galatians 2:4
People were talking about the Christian faith all over.
Is spreading the word of God a work?
So then others knew of faith through works?
And the faithful are called to works, no?
Literally nothing to do with salvation.
Does dead faith lead to salvation?
I don't believe it does, but that's what you are proposing.
Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Each live only when they coexist.
You can have dead faith (cf Jas. 2:17), which is bad. You can also have dead works (cf Heb 9:14), which is bad. Together faith and works are alive (cf Jas. 2:26).
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" - Hebrews 9:14
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." - James 2:17
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." - James 2:26
Legalistic types
It's not legalism, it's sound exegesis of the text.
I believe your criticism of works is aimed at dead works. If so, I agree that dead works don't lead to salvation.
A foundational axiom in Christian exegesis is that doctrinal contradictions aren't present in the Bible. Between an interpretation that demands a contradiction and an interpretation that unifies the text, the Christian ethos selects the interpretation that best unifies the text.
If you believe Paul and James should be considered contradictory despite being reconcilable, you have left Christian ethos.
Paul and James can be unified. If you disagree, make your case.
[ - ] Love240 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:25:43 ago (+1/-0)
James speaks of profit; Who does it profit if you have faith and no works?
This is in reference to believers being saved 'unto' good works, and not 'because' of good works. (Ephesians 2:10)
We are saved by grace through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). A faith that does not work is one that does not profit others, yet by fire would they still be saved, as Paul plainly laid out in Romans 4, as David had said in the Old Testament, showing God does not change, and salvation has always been by faith.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. - Romans 4:5-8
You need to get into a KJV Bible believing church before it's too late.
I suggest you continue reading to the bottom of Romans 4:
"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." - Rom 4:20-22
The works referenced in the start is about dead works under the law. But later the "faith counted for righteousness" is explained to be a faith that is able to perform (good works).
Unto good works not because of good works
Jas. 2 demonstrates that good faith and good works are two sides of the same coin. Work without faith is dead works, faith without good works is dead faith.
James speaks of profit; Who does it profit if you have faith and no works?
Good thing you quoted Romans 4:20-22, because you have no clue what it means.
The 'he' who 'was able also to perform' is God.
lol, you really do not know God.
Jas. 2 demonstrates that good faith and good works are two sides of the same coin.
No. The point of the chapter is to tell you to do good works.
They're not the same side of the coin if he has to tell you to do them.
Work without faith is dead works, faith without good works is dead faith.
Which means it will not profit another. Even dead faith is still saving faith.
By analogy: A car doesn't cease to be a car because it doesn't run; it just no longer profits anyone.
It says more than that.
You don't know what it means because you don't have the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth.
Repent and believe in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation from sin and death and for the gift of the Holy Spirit, that you may know God and that you may live.
If you truly follow KJV, you will find the term "shipwrecked faith" coined from 1 Tim 1:19.
"Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:" - 1 Tim 1:19
We see that shipwrecked faith comes from a failure of two parts: 1) faith, 2) conscience.
Now look at Romans 2:14-16.
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." - Rom 2:14-16
If you ignore your conscience, which guides you to follow the law written on your heart (including the performance of good works), it leads to shipwrecked faith.
Therefore Biblically, even by KJV, shipwrecked faith and dead faith are the same thing.
why don't you look up faith in the dictionary. if you have faith, that means you believe in something. you can know something exists, and still have faith in it. I have faith the sun rises in the east every morning, that is both knowledge and faith.
obviously my comment of the devil being saved was sarcastic, but it proves the point that you need more than just faith. even Jesus says so: Matthew 19:16-19
You simply speak things you do not know, whether it be out of pride or ignorance alone, I do not know, but I will stick with saying the ladder, because it is witnessed by evidence that you have no clue what you say.
obviously my comment of the devil being saved was sarcastic,
It wasn't so obvious from here. You wicked catholics say all manner of blasphemy routinely.
but it proves the point that you need more than just faith. even Jesus says so:
Like that absolute garbage.
Once again you make clear how you do not know what the scripture means, neither do you know God.
So ally quotes from the Bible directly contradicting your ridiculous sola fides is garbage?
You are not an ally, you're a false brother.
There is no quote directly from the Bible that directly contradicts faith alone in Christ Jesus for salvation from sin and death and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Keep screeching.
That's one (mocking) way to say, "keep preaching the Gospel".
James very clearly states "faith without works is dead". Jesus very clearly says "unless you DO the will of my Father". So your interpretation of Paul is contradicting other passages in scripture, including statements directly from Jesus, so therefore your interpretation of Paul is wrong. Paul is not greater than Jesus.
[ + ] BeholdTheLight
[ - ] BeholdTheLight 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 17:13:34 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 17:18:19 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 16:46:52 ago (+2/-2)
How do you measure faith?
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 2 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 17:06:28 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] firestation7
[ - ] firestation7 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:06:33 ago (+2/-1)
Example: There is a chair. It looks rickety, but you tell me that in your heart you really have faith that the chair will support your weight. Yet...you won't sit down. Your lack of action is perceived by anyone observing as a lack of faith.
We can not judge the heart (motivation) of others. What we absolutely do is make sure we are pursuing productive relationships with people who share our beliefs and goals. You can't just believe what people tell you, so our Messiah gave us a thing we can judge...fruit...actions and outcomes.
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 2 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:07:55 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] firestation7
[ - ] firestation7 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:18:11 ago (+2/-1)
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 3 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:30:53 ago (+3/-0)
[ + ] firestation7
[ - ] firestation7 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:44:02 ago (+2/-1)
The problem here is that I have had this convo before. Even if we agree that sin is breaking the law, you are going to fall back to love. Another heart issue. Telling my wife I love her and ignoring her needs is not love. Love is not "goodwill toward others". Love for God is defined many times as obeying God's commands. If Jesus was the Messiah, can He be guilty of breaking any of His Father's laws?
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:46:04 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] firestation7
[ - ] firestation7 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:56:46 ago (+2/-2)
[ + ] firestation7
[ - ] firestation7 0 points 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 05:03:58 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 1 point 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 13:07:23 ago (+1/-0)
What you 'do' is works. You are not saved by 'obedience'. You are saved by belief, which is faith in Christ Jesus alone for the salvation from sin and death.
David knew this and preached it from the OT even.
Yet you who wrest with the word cannot seem to comprehend this.
[ + ] boekanier
[ - ] boekanier 1 point 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 05:10:49 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] firestation7
[ - ] firestation7 1 point 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 05:40:40 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] AugustineOfHippo2
[ - ] AugustineOfHippo2 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:20:55 ago (+2/-1)
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 2 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:44:47 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] AugustineOfHippo2
[ - ] AugustineOfHippo2 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:16:42 ago (+2/-1)
or how about Matthew 7:21 => “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father.
maybe Matthew 19:16-19 => Then a man came forward and asked him, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to achieve eternal life?” 17 He said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. But if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said, “Which ones?” And Jesus answered, “You shall not kill. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness. 19 Honor your father and your mother. Love your neighbor as yourself.”
how about John 14:21 => Anyone who has received my commandments
and observes them
is the one who loves me.
And whoever loves me
will be loved by my Father,
and I will love him
and reveal myself to him.”
Sola Fides is debunked directly in scripture, and directly through the words of Jesus Himself.
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 2 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:55:04 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto -2 points 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 09:56:12 ago (+0/-2)
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 22:03:39 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] boekanier
[ - ] boekanier 1 point 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 05:09:40 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] firestation7
[ - ] firestation7 0 points 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 05:42:54 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:02:30 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 2 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:42:34 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 19:01:49 ago (+1/-1)
If faith can't be measured, what were people talking about when they spoke of the faith of those in Rome? Clearly faith can be measured and observed. How else would this be so unless by works?
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 19:05:04 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 20:00:49 ago (+1/-1)
Is spreading the word of God a work?
So then others knew of faith through works?
And the faithful are called to works, no?
Does dead faith lead to salvation?
I don't believe it does, but that's what you are proposing.
Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Each live only when they coexist.
You can have dead faith (cf Jas. 2:17), which is bad. You can also have dead works (cf Heb 9:14), which is bad. Together faith and works are alive (cf Jas. 2:26).
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" - Hebrews 9:14
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." - James 2:17
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." - James 2:26
It's not legalism, it's sound exegesis of the text.
I believe your criticism of works is aimed at dead works. If so, I agree that dead works don't lead to salvation.
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 20:06:53 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:37:33 ago (+1/-1)
If you believe Paul and James should be considered contradictory despite being reconcilable, you have left Christian ethos.
Paul and James can be unified. If you disagree, make your case.
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:51:16 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:25:43 ago (+1/-0)
This is in reference to believers being saved 'unto' good works, and not 'because' of good works. (Ephesians 2:10)
We are saved by grace through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). A faith that does not work is one that does not profit others, yet by fire would they still be saved, as Paul plainly laid out in Romans 4, as David had said in the Old Testament, showing God does not change, and salvation has always been by faith.
You need to get into a KJV Bible believing church before it's too late.
You clearly do not know God.
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:53:04 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 22:42:30 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 22:13:41 ago (+0/-0)
"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." - Rom 4:20-22
The works referenced in the start is about dead works under the law. But later the "faith counted for righteousness" is explained to be a faith that is able to perform (good works).
Jas. 2 demonstrates that good faith and good works are two sides of the same coin. Work without faith is dead works, faith without good works is dead faith.
It says more than that.
Do you believe death faith leads to salvation?
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 22:40:20 ago (+0/-0)
The 'he' who 'was able also to perform' is God.
lol, you really do not know God.
No. The point of the chapter is to tell you to do good works.
They're not the same side of the coin if he has to tell you to do them.
Which means it will not profit another. Even dead faith is still saving faith.
By analogy: A car doesn't cease to be a car because it doesn't run; it just no longer profits anyone.
You don't know what it means because you don't have the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth.
Repent and believe in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation from sin and death and for the gift of the Holy Spirit, that you may know God and that you may live.
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] -1 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 22:21:40 ago (+0/-1)
[ + ] AugustineOfHippo2
[ - ] AugustineOfHippo2 -1 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:19:15 ago (+1/-2)
Doesn't the devil have faith? He believes in God, so therefore he must have faith, and as such, he must be saved.
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:29:57 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:58:40 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Deleted
[ - ] deleted 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 22:53:58 ago (+0/-0)*
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto -1 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 22:58:02 ago (+0/-1)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 22:59:56 ago (+0/-0)
The only saving grace is found through faith in Jesus Christ alone for the salvation from sin and death and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Your pilpul disgusts me.
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 23:01:51 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 23:05:17 ago (+0/-0)
Shipwrecked faith, is a faith that is not in God which leads you into disaster.
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 00:28:59 ago (+0/-0)
If you truly follow KJV, you will find the term "shipwrecked faith" coined from 1 Tim 1:19.
"Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:" - 1 Tim 1:19
We see that shipwrecked faith comes from a failure of two parts: 1) faith, 2) conscience.
Now look at Romans 2:14-16.
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." - Rom 2:14-16
If you ignore your conscience, which guides you to follow the law written on your heart (including the performance of good works), it leads to shipwrecked faith.
Therefore Biblically, even by KJV, shipwrecked faith and dead faith are the same thing.
[ + ] AugustineOfHippo2
[ - ] AugustineOfHippo2 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:58:39 ago (+1/-1)
obviously my comment of the devil being saved was sarcastic, but it proves the point that you need more than just faith. even Jesus says so: Matthew 19:16-19
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 22:06:48 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 22:51:31 ago (+0/-0)
You simply speak things you do not know, whether it be out of pride or ignorance alone, I do not know, but I will stick with saying the ladder, because it is witnessed by evidence that you have no clue what you say.
It wasn't so obvious from here. You wicked catholics say all manner of blasphemy routinely.
Like that absolute garbage.
Once again you make clear how you do not know what the scripture means, neither do you know God.
[ + ] AugustineOfHippo2
[ - ] AugustineOfHippo2 0 points 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 07:27:35 ago (+1/-1)
So ally quotes from the Bible directly contradicting your ridiculous sola fides is garbage? Keep screeching.
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 0 points 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 13:00:00 ago (+0/-0)
You are not an ally, you're a false brother.
There is no quote directly from the Bible that directly contradicts faith alone in Christ Jesus for salvation from sin and death and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
That's one (mocking) way to say, "keep preaching the Gospel".
And I will keep preaching the Gospel.
[ + ] AugustineOfHippo2
[ - ] AugustineOfHippo2 0 points 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 17:38:49 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 0 points 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 17:42:35 ago (+0/-0)
You do not understand the scriptures because you do not have the Holy Spirit.
I can't say this enough.
Just answer this; What is the will of the Father?
Very simple question.
Just answer it.
This question alone show how you do not understand the Word of God because you do not have the Spirit.
Again, What is the will of the Father?
[ + ] AugustineOfHippo2
[ - ] AugustineOfHippo2 0 points 2 monthsFeb 11, 2025 18:56:31 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Markshirley
[ - ] Markshirley [op] 0 points 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 18:28:12 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 1 point 2 monthsFeb 10, 2025 21:29:05 ago (+1/-0)