nope it doesnt, in christianity you are saved by grace through faith and not of works
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, >then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
you implied that you need works in order to be saved. you are saved by believing on the work of jesus at the cross and on his shed blood for your sins and that he also resurrected on your behalf and he is sitting at the right hand of the father interceding for you as well.
when God sees christ, he sees you because he took all the punishment that you deserved for being a sinner. thus, guaranteeing your pass in to heaven when your time comes.
that faith must be on him alone,nobody else.
because nobody else is closer to the father than the son. as a second member of the trinity or Godhead.
also christ united perfectly his divine nature with his new human nature acquired at conception.
what a great salvation that God in his mercy decided to save men while the angels that rebelled/FELL doesnt get this pardon. EVER!!
praise God for his love and grace. when i was younger and naive i would ask myself why God didnt made me an angel instead. well, the angels as powerful and holy as they are they dont enjoy the grace that we do when jesus comes in the second time.
the bible tells us that believers will judge angels. the change that is coming at his appearing is going to change EVERYTHING E THE UNIVERSE ITSELF IS GOING TO ROLL LIKE A SCROLL AND BEING BURNED UP WHILE WE WATCH THE WHOLE EVENT HAPPENING IN REAL TIME
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall >pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the >works that are therein shall be burned up.
Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. 17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
do you keep the law? are you circumcized?? do you the sabbath without skipping a beat? do you do charity to the poor as you are supposed to do? do you abstain and never sin???
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law >is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, >then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
1) Faith as an internal orientation. 2) "Works" as earnest compulsion and intention to act on one's faith 3) "Works" as measurable outcome
Catholic doctrine isn't arguing that #3 is salvific. In fact, any outcome good work could be said to be God working through you, much like God performing miracles through Paul's hands. Paul's "work" in that case was to be an open conduit for God's will. The glory goes to God for all good works. God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
If Protestants are defining "faith" to be inclusive of the "works" intention, it means there is only a semantic difference between the Catholic and Protestant perspectives. Both are saying different words but mean the same thing.
To take an extreme example to highlight the point: you could not damn a fellow human being by shackling them from the beginning of their life in order to prevent them from performing actions with measurable outcomes. Catholics don't believe that would cause damnation for the shackled party. This proves that the Catholic perspective on salvific "works" isn't about outcome.
And from that the objection in the Augsburg Confession is addressed. I highly recommend everyone takes the time to read Augsburg confessions and then the modern Catholic Catechism to see how the Church responded.
I believe the schisms can be healed. It just takes patience and contemplation by what is meant.
Not every Protestant will be on the same page, but if you hail from anything akin to Lutheranism reflected in the Augsburg confession, there are paths for healing the way.
ask that to the thief on the cross. how much work did he had to do to enter paradise? or the ethiopian guy that was baptized by Phillip. did he had to go to catechism in order to be baptized (that's another subject i know)
or what about those who were healed by jesus himself. what work did they had to do to receive this grace??
do you know that its the holy spirit that prompts the believer to do good works if so then how can you say i did it??
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
See my shackled man example. The thief on the cross showed a concession and contrition and had he been let down from the cross was in a mental alignment for works. The fact that he was physically prevented from being able to perform acts just means the "measurable outcome" works wasn't accomplished. Outcome isn't important, but the willingness to do good works is.
If we look at the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee, the Pharisee boasts about how many acts of works he does (fasting, etc). But the Publican tax collector beats his chest and calls out to God to give him Mercy as a sinner. Jesus explains that the Publican was justified before God where the Pharisee was not.
The measure of outcome isn't the focus of works, it is the measure of faith in motion that counts towards the kind of works the Catholic Church is talking about.
If you really wanted to zero in an extreme example of works, it is the question about whether aborted babies go to heaven (they never had the opportunity for works). The Catholic response is that the lack of works and even the lack of baptism does not rule out the concept that God may offer grace to these unfortunate victims.
If you can understand that nuance about aborted babies (e.g. the concept of "opportunity" in CCC 1257), you'll see that the entire "faith & works" argument isn't the kind of hard line that you might have thought it was. Catholic doctrine is very heavily misunderstood, even by many practising Catholics.
or what about those who were healed by jesus himself. what work did they had to do to receive this grace??
Does Jesus healing someone indicate that they will be saved? I'm not convinced that's necessarily the case.
The thief on the cross showed a concession and contrition and had he been let down from the cross was in a mental alignment for works. The fact that he was physically prevented from being able to perform acts just means the "measurable outcome" works wasn't accomplished. Outcome isn't important, but the willingness to do good works is.
are you pulling this out of your ass? where do you find out that the thief wanted to do good works he just said " remember me when you come in to your kingdom" he didnt said master let do a work for you before i die on the cross. if you read the text the guy wasnt event repented of his actions he just trusted jesus that he said who he said who he was.
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
see he ackowledged him as lord which was enough for salvation. he didnt said forgive me because i'm a thief. that's a wild interpretation that you got there from a small text
If we look at the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee, the Pharisee boasts about how many acts of works he does (fasting, etc). But the Publican tax collector beats his chest and calls out to God to give him Mercy as a sinner. Jesus explains that the Publican was justified before God where the Pharisee was not.
something similar happened but with a difference the thief knew him as LORD but didnt show contrition of any kind. just pure faith.
i know this very well but just because you repeat this like parrots doesnt mean that you are going to be heard. jesus hates repetitions
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
jesus wants you and i to speak from our hearts and to be sincere. if you dont now what to say when you pray a simple " help me God" will suffice. some protestants are guilty of this too. the magicians do formulas to cast their spells, christians should not do this we should talk from our hearts and spirits
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
If you really wanted to zero in an extreme example of works, it is the question about whether aborted babies go to heaven (they never had the opportunity for works). The Catholic response is that the lack of works and even the lack of baptism does not rule out the concept that God may offer grace to these unfortunate victims.
If you can understand that nuance about aborted babies (e.g. the concept of "opportunity" in CCC 1257), you'll see that the entire "faith & works" argument isn't the kind of hard line that you might have thought it was. Catholic doctrine is very heavily misunderstood, even by many practising Catholics.
interesting....
Does Jesus healing someone indicate that they will be saved? I'm not convinced that's necessarily the >case.
what?
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, ''Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace''.
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
according to this, people that got healed were also saved. remember there also many that jesus didnt heal.
the infirm on the pool of bethesda is a an example of this. there were many sick in near that pool and jesus just healed one person out of many.
so, yes i believe that healing and casting out demons meant that person was saved.
what about the woman that had the blood issue and when she touched his garments she was healed why did jesus said to her or the curved woman that couldnt stand on her own what jesus told the pharisees about her?
ohh btw, jesus didnt allowed some ppl to become his disciples. even though they begged for it.
you know why because its all about grace? he came to dispense grace and to do his father's work
OSAS is a pretty interesting point of view within protestant christianity. its not universalism per se but it tells you that once you are saved you are always saved
let me give you an example.
there was a case in the church of Corinth in which one of the members of that church was doing a terrible sin which was sleeping with his father's wife (not his natural mother) guess what the apostle paul did?
1 Corinthians Chapter 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus
see what paul did in this instance? he delivered the fornicator to satan so that his soul would be saved at christ return
hey if this is not OSAS then i dont know what this is!
[ + ] 3Whuurs
[ - ] 3Whuurs 1 point 3 monthsFeb 2, 2025 03:01:00 ago (+1/-0)
Your Bible tells YOU that I will know you by your works.
So you may not need good works to be saved, but if you don’t have good works, you aren’t saved.
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 0 points 3 monthsFeb 2, 2025 08:42:05 ago (+0/-0)*
[ + ] 3Whuurs
[ - ] 3Whuurs 0 points 3 monthsFeb 2, 2025 13:16:24 ago (+0/-0)
Where in my comment did I say it doesn’t? Lol
Can you even read?
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 0 points 2 monthsFeb 2, 2025 17:22:19 ago (+0/-0)
when God sees christ, he sees you because he took all the punishment that you deserved for being a sinner. thus, guaranteeing your pass in to heaven when your time comes.
that faith must be on him alone,nobody else.
because nobody else is closer to the father than the son. as a second member of the trinity or Godhead.
also christ united perfectly his divine nature with his new human nature acquired at conception.
what a great salvation that God in his mercy decided to save men while the angels that rebelled/FELL doesnt get this pardon. EVER!!
praise God for his love and grace. when i was younger and naive i would ask myself why God didnt made me an angel instead. well, the angels as powerful and holy as they are they dont enjoy the grace that we do when jesus comes in the second time.
the bible tells us that believers will judge angels. the change that is coming at his appearing is going to change EVERYTHING E
THE UNIVERSE ITSELF IS GOING TO ROLL LIKE A SCROLL AND BEING BURNED UP WHILE WE WATCH THE WHOLE EVENT HAPPENING IN REAL TIME
[ + ] 3Whuurs
[ - ] 3Whuurs 0 points 2 monthsFeb 2, 2025 22:01:54 ago (+0/-0)
No I didn’t, not even a tiny little bit.
Infact I said the exact opposite. Lol
Try to respond to what I actually said.
[ + ] doginventer
[ - ] doginventer 1 point 3 monthsFeb 2, 2025 08:16:26 ago (+1/-0)
Chapter 2
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 0 points 3 monthsFeb 2, 2025 08:40:52 ago (+0/-0)*
[ + ] doginventer
[ - ] doginventer 0 points 3 monthsFeb 2, 2025 09:31:54 ago (+0/-0)
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 3 monthsFeb 2, 2025 10:57:15 ago (+0/-0)
There are three elements to consider:
1) Faith as an internal orientation.
2) "Works" as earnest compulsion and intention to act on one's faith
3) "Works" as measurable outcome
Catholic doctrine isn't arguing that #3 is salvific. In fact, any outcome good work could be said to be God working through you, much like God performing miracles through Paul's hands. Paul's "work" in that case was to be an open conduit for God's will. The glory goes to God for all good works. God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
If Protestants are defining "faith" to be inclusive of the "works" intention, it means there is only a semantic difference between the Catholic and Protestant perspectives. Both are saying different words but mean the same thing.
To take an extreme example to highlight the point: you could not damn a fellow human being by shackling them from the beginning of their life in order to prevent them from performing actions with measurable outcomes. Catholics don't believe that would cause damnation for the shackled party. This proves that the Catholic perspective on salvific "works" isn't about outcome.
And from that the objection in the Augsburg Confession is addressed. I highly recommend everyone takes the time to read Augsburg confessions and then the modern Catholic Catechism to see how the Church responded.
I believe the schisms can be healed. It just takes patience and contemplation by what is meant.
Not every Protestant will be on the same page, but if you hail from anything akin to Lutheranism reflected in the Augsburg confession, there are paths for healing the way.
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 0 points 3 monthsFeb 2, 2025 11:22:09 ago (+0/-0)
or what about those who were healed by jesus himself. what work did they had to do to receive this grace??
do you know that its the holy spirit that prompts the believer to do good works if so then how can you say i did it??
[ + ] Reunto
[ - ] Reunto 0 points 2 monthsFeb 2, 2025 18:39:11 ago (+0/-0)
See my shackled man example. The thief on the cross showed a concession and contrition and had he been let down from the cross was in a mental alignment for works. The fact that he was physically prevented from being able to perform acts just means the "measurable outcome" works wasn't accomplished. Outcome isn't important, but the willingness to do good works is.
If we look at the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee, the Pharisee boasts about how many acts of works he does (fasting, etc). But the Publican tax collector beats his chest and calls out to God to give him Mercy as a sinner. Jesus explains that the Publican was justified before God where the Pharisee was not.
In every Catholic mass there is a point where the congregation recites a confession ( https://www.archspm.org/faith-and-discipleship/prayer/catholic-prayers/the-confiteor/ ) where a reference is made to the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee.
The measure of outcome isn't the focus of works, it is the measure of faith in motion that counts towards the kind of works the Catholic Church is talking about.
If you really wanted to zero in an extreme example of works, it is the question about whether aborted babies go to heaven (they never had the opportunity for works). The Catholic response is that the lack of works and even the lack of baptism does not rule out the concept that God may offer grace to these unfortunate victims.
If you can understand that nuance about aborted babies (e.g. the concept of "opportunity" in CCC 1257), you'll see that the entire "faith & works" argument isn't the kind of hard line that you might have thought it was. Catholic doctrine is very heavily misunderstood, even by many practising Catholics.
Does Jesus healing someone indicate that they will be saved? I'm not convinced that's necessarily the case.
Are you making an OSAS argument?
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 0 points 2 monthsFeb 2, 2025 20:20:00 ago (+0/-0)
are you pulling this out of your ass? where do you find out that the thief wanted to do good works he just said " remember me when you come in to your kingdom" he didnt said master let do a work for you before i die on the cross. if you read the text the guy wasnt event repented of his actions he just trusted jesus that he said who he said who he was.
see he ackowledged him as lord which was enough for salvation. he didnt said forgive me because i'm a thief. that's a wild interpretation that you got there from a small text
something similar happened but with a difference the thief knew him as LORD but didnt show contrition of any kind. just pure faith.
i know this very well but just because you repeat this like parrots doesnt mean that you are going to be heard. jesus hates repetitions
jesus wants you and i to speak from our hearts and to be sincere. if you dont now what to say when you pray a simple " help me God" will suffice. some protestants are guilty of this too. the magicians do formulas to cast their spells, christians should not do this we should talk from our hearts and spirits
interesting....
what?
according to this, people that got healed were also saved. remember there also many that jesus didnt heal.
the infirm on the pool of bethesda is a an example of this. there were many sick in near that pool and jesus just healed one person out of many.
so, yes i believe that healing and casting out demons meant that person was saved.
what about the woman that had the blood issue and when she touched his garments she was healed why did jesus said to her or the curved woman that couldnt stand on her own what jesus told the pharisees about her?
ohh btw, jesus didnt allowed some ppl to become his disciples. even though they begged for it.
you know why because its all about grace? he came to dispense grace and to do his father's work
OSAS is a pretty interesting point of view within protestant christianity. its not universalism per se but it tells you that once you are saved you are always saved
let me give you an example.
there was a case in the church of Corinth in which one of the members of that church was doing a terrible sin which was sleeping with his father's wife (not his natural mother) guess what the apostle paul did?
1 Corinthians
Chapter 5
see what paul did in this instance? he delivered the fornicator to satan so that his soul would be saved at christ return
hey if this is not OSAS then i dont know what this is!