I mean, isn't this missing the point? The reformers wanted to move away from the veneration of anybody but the deity. They had serious problems with the veneration of non-Christ figures, like Mary. So the fact they wouldn't elevate human worshippers to a deified state seems like it falls out of their motivations for being Protestants.
Imagine a car guy is in an argument with a truck guy. The truck guy says, "Here is my one response to all of the car-guy arguments against trucks. Where's your 8-ft bed?"
The car guys are just going to think, "Yeah, we don't think that's important."
The reformers wanted to move away from the veneration of anybody but the deity.
Luther, the original "reformist" did not. The follow-on "reformists" beginning with Calvin did. That is what was brought out by the "personal interpretation" doctrine that Luther started - the proliferation of (conflicting) beliefs based on "my" understanding of scripture. Ironic how Luther railed against the rigidity of Catholic doctrine, but then acted in the same way towards anyone who questioned his teachings.
Orthodoxy loves kikes too... Your 'worship' is nothing but death, blood ritual and cannibalism. Christians have been walking backwards through history for 2000 years and refuse to turn their faces towards the light.
[ - ] iSnark [op] 1 point 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 09:10:25 ago (+1/-0)
Incorrect! Our Communion is a joint Communion with the Apostles at the Last Supper. The Apostles took of the Body, Blood, Soul, & Divinity of Christ (THIS IS MY BODY...), and so too, do we take of the Body of Christ.
Why do you eat God? This is a serious question. I understand all of the theories of atonement and justification. I don't understand why you eat God and drink his blood. There is a great deal of emphasis in Catholicism on the physical realism of Christ's embodiment. I see later on that you said this isn't cannibalism, but it is uncontroversial that it is cannibalism. You believe Christ had a human nature, including a human body and human blood. Catholics believe you literally eat this body (and drink the blood) every time you go to Mass and take the Eucharist.
Now, cannibalism might be a little tongue-in-cheek; I'll grant that. It depends on how you define it. Of course, we wouldn't mean to call it cannibalism in the sense that you're eating human flesh for biological sustenance. It still seems that you're eating human flesh for a different sort of sustenance, but that doesn't straightforwardly disqualify it as cannibalism. If there was a religion that prescribed to its followers that they select one person from a given community each year to eat in a ritual ceremony, and this was supposed to be one essential thing for salvation, everyone is going to call that cannibalism.
[ - ] iSnark [op] 1 point 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 15:08:28 ago (+1/-0)
Hey CHIRO,
I wish that I had a definitive explanation as to exactly Why and How Transubstantiation mechanically works.
There are mysteries in the Catholic Church that we accept through Faith. What we do know for certain, is that Christ Commanded His Apostles to,"Take and eat this Bread and drink this wine, It is My (Jesus') body and blood."
This is Indisputable...
The thing that Christ implored the the Apostles to do is to accept Christ into themselves, through the process of eating His body. There have been miracles where a consecrated Host turned literally, into flesh during Mass. When they took the changed host to doctors, without telling them what it was, the Doctors researched the converted host, and found that it was tissue of a Mans Heart that had undergone traumatic physical events (The Calcification). I can not be more clear, and I can not be more accurate about this, as this is a mystery. We don't debate it, we accept it as a command from Jesus. From the secular world, this explanation looks like a weak argument, But, it is a mystery that is 100% True.
Thanks for the level-headed answer. I have been in talks with a Catholic (now in Seminary) for some years now, and your answer aligns with his strikingly well. Happy Thanksgiving, bro.
Very valid question, and one that, as @iSnark said, doesn't have what you would consider a satisfactory answer. We do this because God said "Do this". It is not something we understand completely, and is a test of our faith and belief in God. My children don't always understand why I tell them to do things, but they know I love them and would never steer them in a wrong direction, so they obey without full understanding. Same with us and God. I can easily see the goodness in all His commandments, and so therefore trust Him even in the commandments I don't fully understand. That is called faith.
As I said to Isnark, I will say to you. I appreciate the humility in your answers a lot. Concise, pointed, and honest. Way to be. Happy Thanksgiving (if you're American).
[ - ] iSnark [op] 1 point 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 09:38:09 ago (+1/-0)*
Not symbolic, and not cannibalism... Jesus walked the Earth on the Fathers schedule, not ours. The fact that this happened a long time ago has no bearing on it's monumental importance to us. God brought Eternal Salvation to us through Jesus Christ. Remember, God exists outside of the confines of time. WE are condemned to suffer the ravages of time. You are Wrong about the Sacrifice that Christ undertook for us, and our eternal adoration to God for this suffering of Jesus that opened the door to Heaven for Humanity.
Your argument is tainted with blood of the innocent; your catholic church would once sentence a man to death for owning a copy of the bible... Let that sink in.
[ + ] Hobama
[ - ] Hobama 3 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 10:34:49 ago (+3/-0)
Links 30m video
[ + ] iSnark
[ - ] iSnark [op] 0 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 10:58:57 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] albatrosv15
[ - ] albatrosv15 0 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 12:58:58 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Sector2
[ - ] Sector2 2 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 10:24:51 ago (+2/-0)
Not the most logically compelling argument.
[ + ] Lost_In_The_Thinking
[ - ] Lost_In_The_Thinking 1 point 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 13:15:23 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 14:06:46 ago (+0/-0)*
Imagine a car guy is in an argument with a truck guy. The truck guy says, "Here is my one response to all of the car-guy arguments against trucks. Where's your 8-ft bed?"
The car guys are just going to think, "Yeah, we don't think that's important."
The only thing that actually settles that debate is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I51JXpcLwk
[ + ] AugustineOfHippo2
[ - ] AugustineOfHippo2 1 point 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 15:47:15 ago (+1/-0)
Luther, the original "reformist" did not. The follow-on "reformists" beginning with Calvin did. That is what was brought out by the "personal interpretation" doctrine that Luther started - the proliferation of (conflicting) beliefs based on "my" understanding of scripture.
Ironic how Luther railed against the rigidity of Catholic doctrine, but then acted in the same way towards anyone who questioned his teachings.
[ + ] inaminit
[ - ] inaminit -3 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 09:01:03 ago (+0/-3)
[ + ] iSnark
[ - ] iSnark [op] 1 point 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 09:10:25 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 14:03:40 ago (+0/-0)*
Now, cannibalism might be a little tongue-in-cheek; I'll grant that. It depends on how you define it. Of course, we wouldn't mean to call it cannibalism in the sense that you're eating human flesh for biological sustenance. It still seems that you're eating human flesh for a different sort of sustenance, but that doesn't straightforwardly disqualify it as cannibalism. If there was a religion that prescribed to its followers that they select one person from a given community each year to eat in a ritual ceremony, and this was supposed to be one essential thing for salvation, everyone is going to call that cannibalism.
[ + ] iSnark
[ - ] iSnark [op] 1 point 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 15:08:28 ago (+1/-0)
I wish that I had a definitive explanation as to exactly Why and How Transubstantiation mechanically works.
There are mysteries in the Catholic Church that we accept through Faith. What we do know for certain, is that Christ Commanded His Apostles to,"Take and eat this Bread and drink this wine, It is My (Jesus') body and blood."
This is Indisputable...
The thing that Christ implored the the Apostles to do is to accept Christ into themselves, through the process of eating His body. There have been miracles where a consecrated Host turned literally, into flesh during Mass. When they took the changed host to doctors, without telling them what it was, the Doctors researched the converted host, and found that it was tissue of a Mans Heart that had undergone traumatic physical events (The Calcification). I can not be more clear, and I can not be more accurate about this, as this is a mystery. We don't debate it, we accept it as a command from Jesus. From the secular world, this explanation looks like a weak argument, But, it is a mystery that is 100% True.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 19:14:48 ago (+0/-0)*
[ + ] AugustineOfHippo2
[ - ] AugustineOfHippo2 1 point 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 16:00:44 ago (+1/-0)
Very valid question, and one that, as @iSnark said, doesn't have what you would consider a satisfactory answer.
We do this because God said "Do this". It is not something we understand completely, and is a test of our faith and belief in God. My children don't always understand why I tell them to do things, but they know I love them and would never steer them in a wrong direction, so they obey without full understanding. Same with us and God. I can easily see the goodness in all His commandments, and so therefore trust Him even in the commandments I don't fully understand. That is called faith.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 19:17:32 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] AugustineOfHippo2
[ - ] AugustineOfHippo2 1 point 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 23:10:27 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] inaminit
[ - ] inaminit -2 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 09:14:15 ago (+0/-2)
[ + ] iSnark
[ - ] iSnark [op] 1 point 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 09:38:09 ago (+1/-0)*
[ + ] inaminit
[ - ] inaminit 0 points 5 monthsNov 27, 2024 12:07:53 ago (+0/-0)