We’ve evolved to experience an emotional reward when observing negative consequences fall upon people who jeopardize the stability and safety of our societies. Its a useful trait.
I know you know that any trait can be given an evolutionary explanation, simply in virtue of being equipped with the concept of fitness. If there is no obvious physical explanation, then there is a psychological/cognitive one, e.g., "Well, the concept of X exists because belief in X makes people do Y and Y is beneficial." But this is really just a framework for writing a story. It's an algorithm. Given concept X, what would someone who believed X possibly do if motivated by X? From that set, select one or more of the possibilities that would benefit the organism and exclude any of the ones that would harm it. But we could always conceive of many examples of both beneficial and harmful consequences for any given belief. So this is thoroughly unfalsifiable.
It's a just-so story from top to bottom. I'm not saying it doesn't have explanatory power -- obviously it can explain any biological fact. I just always find myself cocking my head to the side a bit when things as mysterious and contentious as the psycho-physical bridge (and a host of other things about minds that puzzle theorists to this day) are taken as mere stipulations in these explanations (they are taken as granted), and beliefs are understood strictly functionally.
But this makes it hard to explain belief contents because there is, for any behavior, a large and possibly infinite set of belief contents that would equally explain the behavior. The belief 'tigers are dangerous' could explain the same behavior as 'it is good to run from things that move' or 'tigers are gross' or 'my kidneys will shut down if I look at a tiger for too long'.
I not only fail to understand how evolution could act on the belief content but also how these contents could possibly be inherited genetically (given there is nothing in the physical facts themselves that could account for the belief contents).
Belief X could lead to many behaviors, both beneficial and harmful.
I think that such a cognitive predisposition need only be the correct one (leading to evolutionary advantage) more often than not, or maybe it need only be the correct one in a scenario where the wrong behavior is fatal (high stakes decision making). Clearly schadenfreude and vindictiveness is not always the best reaction. But theres enough of it going around to tell me that it has been a very viable strategy in our recent evolutionary history. How useful it is will be determine by current social and economic conditions which are constantly changing.
its a just so story. The psycho-physical bridge is not predictable enough for these explanations to be accepted
Im fine with using a little caution when suggesting that X leads to Y. The underlying predisposition which is ostensibly genetic is an emotional predisposition. Not a complete thought like “Tigers are gross.” Honestly I think we author all kinds of narratives to satisfy our emotional instincts and perhaps those narratives dont need to be true or rational for such a mechanism to work. Of course, those narratives can be thought of as memes which have an evolution of their own within a population and do not need genetics to be transmitted. This doesn’t all happen genetically.
I just think that instincts toward revenge, vindictiveness, punitive justice, clearly have a useful function in an economically collaborative society. It seems necessary for a group selection strategy. This particular type of aggression and aggression in general is not wrong but necessary and functional at the right levels. There is inded a link between anger and aggression. Exactly how this algorithm works is unknown. The algorithm isn’t right all of the time. It just needs to be right when it needs to be right. If you know what I mean.
Yeah, how can the provaxxers be right for expressing schadenfreude when a vaccine refuser dies of covid while antivaxxers are also right for celebrating another inexplicable heart attack in a vaccine user? The genetic predisposition toward schadenfreude is probably not specific enough to determine vaccine policy. But it is enforcing ideological tribes. If one of these tribes succeeds wildly I think we can hypothesize a selection for schadenfreude.
Okay, so you see the cognitive layer as being emergent. The work horse is the emotional layer. The cognitive architecture has proven useful enough to keep around, but it is a big variable. It can sometimes reinforce the utility of the emotional layer, but sometimes it doesn't. Do you think it is ever the case that the cognitive layer enhances or corrects the underlying ones?
Do you think it is ever the case that the cognitive layer enhances or corrects the underlying ones?
Yes. And sometimes I think the cognitive layer can be in error. I don’t think the emotional layer should be ignored completely. How often have we been misled by an intellectual premise that turns out to be false? Fags are just like us. Niggers are just like us. Democracy is rational, trust Science, Etc.
Heres an example. Everyone’s getting tired of me talking about quitting booze here. But I had an intellectual realization about alcohol use (partly due to exposure to certain ideas on voat) — a moment of clarity that was definitely “higher brain” and from that day I was able to resist the emotional instinct to have a drink. That was definitely an intellectual concept correcting the “lizard brain” or whatever you want to call it.
Hahaha. Yeah, I do. I used to be far worse about this. Nowadays I'll make an effort post a few times per month. I did it in this case specifically because of who I was responding to.
You ever see videos of niggers harassing an innocent human only for them to get sucker punched by an absolute chad? What about those driving like an asshole with road rage putting everyone else at risk, only for them to drive into a ditch?
Collectively, they believe in ...there is no afterlife. your rewards in life are derived from living a good life... On that, I agree with them. I just don't agree that greed is a virtue.
I was real into sci fi after high school. I gotta say that INFERNO , by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, which I have right here on the shelf next to me, is one of my all time favorite fiction books. Great fun story with unforgettable moments. I especially remember the opening with a nod to "The Brothers Karamazov" , Oh, shit !
Great book. The fictional author who died and ended up in that bronze vase for eternity before he begged for God's help hooked me. The rest was pure magic. Benito Mussolini, indeed.
I’ll admit, I’m not really down with a lot of Christians’ traditional idea of Heaven.
You don’t know anything but love for God. You have no desires, no drives or passions. You’re just there to love God.
That sounds boring as shit to me. That honestly sounds kinda like Hell.
I’m not a very good Christian, but I mostly try.
What I would want out of Heaven is kinda like a modified version of The Matrix, I guess. Where everyone has their own simulation, and they get to be the main character.
Just, I guess there’s not a lot of room for God in that, which is the whole point of Heaven in the first place.
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 5 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 09:31:03 ago (+5/-0)
We’ve evolved to experience an emotional reward when observing negative consequences fall upon people who jeopardize the stability and safety of our societies. Its a useful trait.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 3 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 09:55:37 ago (+3/-0)*
It's a just-so story from top to bottom. I'm not saying it doesn't have explanatory power -- obviously it can explain any biological fact. I just always find myself cocking my head to the side a bit when things as mysterious and contentious as the psycho-physical bridge (and a host of other things about minds that puzzle theorists to this day) are taken as mere stipulations in these explanations (they are taken as granted), and beliefs are understood strictly functionally.
But this makes it hard to explain belief contents because there is, for any behavior, a large and possibly infinite set of belief contents that would equally explain the behavior. The belief 'tigers are dangerous' could explain the same behavior as 'it is good to run from things that move' or 'tigers are gross' or 'my kidneys will shut down if I look at a tiger for too long'.
I not only fail to understand how evolution could act on the belief content but also how these contents could possibly be inherited genetically (given there is nothing in the physical facts themselves that could account for the belief contents).
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 2 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 12:14:37 ago (+2/-0)
I think that such a cognitive predisposition need only be the correct one (leading to evolutionary advantage) more often than not, or maybe it need only be the correct one in a scenario where the wrong behavior is fatal (high stakes decision making). Clearly schadenfreude and vindictiveness is not always the best reaction. But theres enough of it going around to tell me that it has been a very viable strategy in our recent evolutionary history. How useful it is will be determine by current social and economic conditions which are constantly changing.
Im fine with using a little caution when suggesting that X leads to Y. The underlying predisposition which is ostensibly genetic is an emotional predisposition. Not a complete thought like “Tigers are gross.” Honestly I think we author all kinds of narratives to satisfy our emotional instincts and perhaps those narratives dont need to be true or rational for such a mechanism to work. Of course, those narratives can be thought of as memes which have an evolution of their own within a population and do not need genetics to be transmitted. This doesn’t all happen genetically.
I just think that instincts toward revenge, vindictiveness, punitive justice, clearly have a useful function in an economically collaborative society. It seems necessary for a group selection strategy. This particular type of aggression and aggression in general is not wrong but necessary and functional at the right levels. There is inded a link between anger and aggression. Exactly how this algorithm works is unknown. The algorithm isn’t right all of the time. It just needs to be right when it needs to be right. If you know what I mean.
Yeah, how can the provaxxers be right for expressing schadenfreude when a vaccine refuser dies of covid while antivaxxers are also right for celebrating another inexplicable heart attack in a vaccine user? The genetic predisposition toward schadenfreude is probably not specific enough to determine vaccine policy. But it is enforcing ideological tribes. If one of these tribes succeeds wildly I think we can hypothesize a selection for schadenfreude.
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 12:26:56 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 2 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 13:29:55 ago (+2/-0)
Yes. And sometimes I think the cognitive layer can be in error. I don’t think the emotional layer should be ignored completely. How often have we been misled by an intellectual premise that turns out to be false? Fags are just like us. Niggers are just like us. Democracy is rational, trust Science, Etc.
Heres an example. Everyone’s getting tired of me talking about quitting booze here. But I had an intellectual realization about alcohol use (partly due to exposure to certain ideas on voat) — a moment of clarity that was definitely “higher brain” and from that day I was able to resist the emotional instinct to have a drink. That was definitely an intellectual concept correcting the “lizard brain” or whatever you want to call it.
[ + ] i_scream_trucks
[ - ] i_scream_trucks 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 10:01:05 ago (+3/-2)
[ + ] CHIRO
[ - ] CHIRO 2 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 10:04:15 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] i_scream_trucks
[ - ] i_scream_trucks 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 20:42:36 ago (+1/-0)
i also post text walls.
pretty sure no one reads em :D
[ + ] Clubberlang
[ - ] Clubberlang 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 11:55:06 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Prairie
[ - ] Prairie 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 11:40:36 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 12:15:52 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Puller_of_Noses
[ - ] Puller_of_Noses [op] 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 20:33:15 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] i_scream_trucks
[ - ] i_scream_trucks 3 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 09:59:53 ago (+3/-0)
[ + ] Puller_of_Noses
[ - ] Puller_of_Noses [op] 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 10:20:49 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] MayhemInChief
[ - ] MayhemInChief 3 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 12:29:15 ago (+3/-0)
[ + ] Puller_of_Noses
[ - ] Puller_of_Noses [op] 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 14:16:32 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 17:19:58 ago (+0/-0)
Suck it up, buttercup.
[ + ] DivineLight2
[ - ] DivineLight2 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 15:33:25 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Puller_of_Noses
[ - ] Puller_of_Noses [op] 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 16:38:39 ago (+0/-0)
On that, I agree with them. I just don't agree that greed is a virtue.
[ + ] oppressed
[ - ] oppressed 2 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 08:35:36 ago (+3/-1)
[ + ] Puller_of_Noses
[ - ] Puller_of_Noses [op] 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 09:02:22 ago (+0/-0)
Even the great Italian poet Dante Alighieri would agree. ...and chuckle.
[ + ] zongongo
[ - ] zongongo 4 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 12:32:42 ago (+4/-0)
I gotta say that INFERNO , by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, which I have right here on the shelf next to me, is one of my all time favorite fiction books. Great fun story with unforgettable moments.
I especially remember the opening with a nod to "The Brothers Karamazov" , Oh, shit !
[ + ] Puller_of_Noses
[ - ] Puller_of_Noses [op] 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 15:06:59 ago (+0/-0)
The fictional author who died and ended up in that bronze vase for eternity before he begged for God's help hooked me. The rest was pure magic. Benito Mussolini, indeed.
[ + ] Doglegwarrior
[ - ] Doglegwarrior 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 10:55:03 ago (+1/-0)
Burning scared people usually
[ + ] Puller_of_Noses
[ - ] Puller_of_Noses [op] 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 11:20:48 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 12:22:09 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] ArcturianDeathTrap
[ - ] ArcturianDeathTrap 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 21:30:45 ago (+0/-0)
We are not the same
[ + ] GreenSaint
[ - ] GreenSaint 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 13:02:17 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] AmazingFlightLizard
[ - ] AmazingFlightLizard 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 10:33:41 ago (+0/-0)
You don’t know anything but love for God. You have no desires, no drives or passions. You’re just there to love God.
That sounds boring as shit to me. That honestly sounds kinda like Hell.
I’m not a very good Christian, but I mostly try.
What I would want out of Heaven is kinda like a modified version of The Matrix, I guess. Where everyone has their own simulation, and they get to be the main character.
Just, I guess there’s not a lot of room for God in that, which is the whole point of Heaven in the first place.
[ + ] Razzoriel
[ - ] Razzoriel 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 08:40:28 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Puller_of_Noses
[ - ] Puller_of_Noses [op] 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 08:58:10 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] i_scream_trucks
[ - ] i_scream_trucks 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 10:02:26 ago (+1/-0)
its people like you what cause unrest.
[ + ] Razzoriel
[ - ] Razzoriel 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 12:38:04 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 17:25:21 ago (+0/-0)
The irony, right?
[ + ] Razzoriel
[ - ] Razzoriel 0 points 7 monthsNov 13, 2024 07:12:20 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Ducktalesooo000ooo
[ - ] Ducktalesooo000ooo 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 07:17:59 ago (+1/-1)
Are you gonna suffer in a cabin?
Are you gonna suffer with a swimming pool?
[ + ] Puller_of_Noses
[ - ] Puller_of_Noses [op] 2 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 07:24:20 ago (+2/-0)
Use the word "witness" for what? Please explain. And...
Don't call me a retard.
Don't ever call me a retard.
[ + ] Ducktalesooo000ooo
[ - ] Ducktalesooo000ooo -1 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 07:30:24 ago (+1/-2)
Nooooooooo!!!!!
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 17:23:52 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] feminismisculturedeath
[ - ] feminismisculturedeath -1 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 09:12:07 ago (+2/-3)
[ + ] Puller_of_Noses
[ - ] Puller_of_Noses [op] 1 point 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 10:57:20 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] boekanier
[ - ] boekanier 0 points 7 monthsNov 12, 2024 09:43:28 ago (+0/-0)