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So, a P2P decentralized network and the Fediverse network are not the same, right? If I understood correctly. Then why is Mastodon calling itself a decentralized social media?

submitted by BarryWW to BigBadTech 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 04:34:41 ago (+1/-0)     (BigBadTech)

I mean, lately, loads of peeps are diving into the Fediverse pool 'cause Big Tech censorship shithole, right?
Within the Fediverse network, you've got these cool spots (instances, if we're being all formal) tailor-made for different content vibes. But, a heads-up: get too wild, and you might get a time-out (yeah, bans).

Now, let's flip the coin. Decentralized P2P networks? Man, they're like the punk rock of the internet. All about that freedom, where everyone's jamming on the same level. And the devs? They can't just mute your epic solo (aka, delete content or ban accounts).

WireMin's caught my eye as a legit decentralized app:http://wiremin.org/

Ban-free zone
No identity crisis (not required personal info)
No sneaky server storing your deets

But (and there's always a 'but'), this does mean any Tom, Dick, or Harry can jump in. That might mean more spam or, y'know, some ahem spicy content.
As of now, though? It's pretty chill, a few risqué bits aside. Probably not swarming with users... yet.

Here's my two cents: with the cyber boogeyman and Big Brother's growing love for censorship, I'm not betting all my chips on the Fediverse. Decentralized networks, though? They're the dark horses, bound to lead the race someday.

What do you guys think?


10 comments block

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[ - ] chrimony 2 points 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 06:09:40 ago (+2/-0)

submitted by BarryWW

Is this you, Barry?

Baron Swartz - Founder - WireMin

Since you're going to self-promote here, Mr. (((Swartz))), care to respond?

o No mention of source code. Just download and trust me, bro.
o Is there a defined protocol, so that independent clients/servers can be written?

[ - ] ElementalPee 0 points 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 10:24:11 ago (+0/-0)

Well, to be fair, his post history does include him asking about this stuff and someone in one of threads told him about wiremin. Of course, it could have all been theater. I can never tell anymore.

[ - ] chrimony 0 points 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 14:38:42 ago (+0/-0)

You mean this? https://www.upgoat.net/viewpost?postid=64b0c409e4141&commentid=64b0fd11ad8d1

Check the account history of the reply. Same 3 month date. Same sparse history with a narrow focus. This is weak astroturf.

[ - ] FacelessOne 0 points 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 09:38:52 ago (+0/-0)

Sounds like a pedo network

[ - ] localsal 0 points 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 07:18:17 ago (+0/-0)

It says no centralized servers...

Ok, how does content get found then? What is the bootstrap mechanism for generating the metadata (if any) to select content?

Even torrents need a "centralized server" to sift through the content and select what to download.

[ - ] ElementalPee 2 points 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 08:33:26 ago (+2/-0)

Torrents don't necessarily need any central server. You can share magnet links anywhere. Most torrent sites just index them and provide search functionality. Plus, there's a ton of overlap between them - as in they list many of the exact same magnet links - illustrating that there's no real centralized server. You're saying the equivalent of there is no internet without google's search.

I don't know the particulars of the services OP was talking about but I've used similar things more than a decade ago and it worked by anyone being able to set up a server and peer with other trusted servers, and content such as posts and messages will be mirrored between all of the servers on the network so that if any one of them goes down, it will continue to function. There are also implementations in which there are no servers at all and all of the clients running the client software will also store and distribute random chunks of data for the network from their own machines.

When people say there's no central server, they're talking about there's no particular target you can go after to take something off of the internet in the sense where even if you had the link, it doesn't work anymore. Not a searching or indexing service to get the links.

[ - ] localsal 0 points 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 09:03:10 ago (+0/-0)

Your second sentence just proves mine. The "share" part.

If the content wants to be found, how many places is someone going to go? For convenience, people visit common sites - even for torrents.

Services where anyone can set up their own server are helpful, but that just means every server downloads the entire payload - and where does that server bootstrap from?

A truly decentralized system has to have a bootstrap mechanism that automatically downloads and shares something at startup, and then regularly updates all the entries, otherwise there will be a way to interfere with the service.

[ - ] ElementalPee 0 points 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 09:17:57 ago (+0/-0)*

The ease of finding something doesn't determine whether or not a network is decentralized. The physical topology and the various protocols used determine that. I mean, those things you mentioned can certainly affect its usability, practicality, and rate of adoption and things like that but it has no bearing on whether or not a network service is centrally hosted.

Mostly though, they tend to work a bit like voat/upgoat would in the sense that you're probably not going to find many links to it in the mainstream, but once you know about it, you can go there and make an account and then you're up and running. It's similar with most of the decentralized stuff, except there's no single server or entity in control of the service so it wouldn't matter if the admin decides to retire - he can't take the ball and go home.

[ - ] localsal 0 points 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 12:28:25 ago (+0/-0)

Thanks for replying.

I am not familiar at all with the programming side of the internet, but I know what steps I have to use to get content, etc.

To me, a perfectly decentralized application is one that would do the following:

upon starting, something like finding a torrent would begin, and this would be a "live" torrent, in the sense that it is constantly updated, like the bitcoin blockchain, with all of the new content.

That could/would happen in the background (hopefully with some level of security, also like a blockchain), and the user interface would just look like a bunch of content.

I like the idea of a left panel for categories (or subverses, etc) - sort of like the pirate bay homepage, but just along the left side. Then a top panel for "topics" after selecting a category, and then finally a main panel for posts on that topic. This is just one example of breaking down content to keep the download smaller.

Each panel would be searchable and can be organized by different criteria.

Since I prefer new windows rather than tabs or forward and back navigation, clicking on a post would load the content into a new window for reading.

New user content would have to be given some sort of marker to tell the system that it is ready to go, and then to be packaged up into a new "block" of meta data for the main "torrent".

The tradeoff is as this app gets popular, the main "torrent" will grow, much like the bitcoin blockchain, and new users will be facing a massive download. This can be slightly mitigated by breaking up the initial download only into the "categories" at first, then adding downloads for the each category, etc.

For anyone to use this, the only thing needed is the app or installer. All of the content is completely served through the app and a connection other users. If the app can be shared over email, etc, then there is no way to stop this - ever. Self updating would be nice, but also entirely dependent on a complete trust in the code.

Right now, torrent sites still get shut down, and users are left aimlessly wandering until a new site pops up or is found - and the trouble is that if a moderately experienced searcher can find a torrent site (using torrents just as an example) then the zogbots can also, along with the lawyers, etc. Every time I have read of a version of TPB being shut down there is a lull in the content (and despondent downloaders) until another site pops up, even though torrents are P2P...

I have tried a couple "decentralized" systems that have some of these features, but most still rely on connecting to a specific place - which is a design that most creators seem loathe to give up. I can't remember which program I tried, but the initialization of content took forever, and I eventually gave up. That was either due to using a centralized repository to get the content, or a very poorly designed protocol that had zero speed between peers. Both of those are very bad for adoption.

But maybe I am just not in the loop on the new technology for decentralized apps yet. I am hopeful that the tech is advancing and can outpace the (((censors))).

[ - ] BarryWW [op] 0 points 6 monthsOct 18, 2023 23:22:20 ago (+0/-0)

Finally!