@polarvortex6601 4 hours ago no, he's wrong here. scripture talks about those who preach and teach and hold another gospel. theology does matters, its true that the believer is saved by grace thru faith but mormons and jehova's witness and others have their theology really really wrong
for example the mormons believe that lucifer and jesus are best of pals when scripture refutes this false teaching. jehova witness doesnt believe that jesus is God in the flesh and dont even believe in the trinity painting the holy spirit as some type of force which is unscriptural .
doctrine matters because:
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
the naaman case and the zareptha widow were the exception not the rule. heiser gives an emotional appeal to salvation but again doctrine DOES MATTERS
otherwise, the quoted verses above wouldnt have made sense since the people that brought the other gospel were gnostics who denied the jesus came in the flesh. the mormons and jehova's witness hold similar ideas.
[ - ] Love240 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 21:12:07 ago (+2/-1)
It seems like he is trying to make a distinction between the two in order to take issue with giving 'the adversary' a proper name instead of calling it 'an office'. Spiritually there is no difference.
As he notes, there was a challenge from ha'satan toward God. Reminiscent of another allusion to Satan/The Devil and Lucifer later in Isaiah as he rebuked Babylon;
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Furthermore, this is confirmed in Revelation;
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
It seems like he is trying to make a distinction between the two in order to take issue with giving 'the adversary' a proper name instead of calling it 'an office'. Spiritually >there is no difference.
how many lucifers are there? as far as i know there's just one accuser of the brethren. no job wasnt tempted by a lesser demon or a satan competitor (what?)
to me it was the same guy that tempted eve,job,jesus and judas. i think he's reading too much in to the text where the OG translators left as it was intended by holy spirit
i mean if the translators got it wrong. then can they be trusted? remember we christians hold that the scriptures are divinely inspired by God (oh by the way, he also holds the view that the writers of the bible werent inspired by God directly but that God allowed them to put their own input in the story sort of speak) so if it wasnt so then the whole religion goes down like a house of cards.
i have his book the unseem realm where he goes deeper in to this subject and honestly i disagree. the bible translators werent stupid.
satan is not a general office. he is a real malevolent beign that hates God and humanity.
btw, this dude died this year of pancreatic cancer. you dont get to play and alter the word of God like he seems to do in some instances like these.
you cannot add or substract anything that is written and implied too
[ - ] Love240 1 point 1 yearApr 22, 2023 00:05:00 ago (+1/-0)*
Yes. Biblical infallibility is my starting point. I didn't realize that is what he thought, but that makes sense considering his ignoring of Revelation 12:9, which clearly equates them.
I meant that the distinction he is trying to make doesn't matter/it's not there. Satan is a spirit too.
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
And Jesus famously said to Peter;
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Yet nobody today goes around thinking Peter is literally Satan.
[ - ] froggy 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 22:50:07 ago (+1/-0)
Let's take doctrine out of the equation for a moment. Jesus has made the road to Heaven simple, in as much as belief in Him as Lord and Savior, and that His death on the cross was the finishing work that opens the door for one to have salvation and eternal life. VERY simple stuff.
Here's where the issues arise. In the case of Mormons, they do not believe that Jesus's death on the cross was the finishing work. "AFTER all you can do." They still believe that personal works are required for salvation, and that Jesus picks up the slack for you. However, every Mormon I have ever met has strongly professed a firm belief in Christ. So the question becomes: How much does God/Jesus care about what your secondary beliefs are if you attempt to follow Christ.
For JW's, it's a far more dire situation. Due to the way the Watchtower society has twisted and edited the Scripture, they believe Christ is not God in flesh, but rather the Arch Angel Michael. Thus, the primary tenet of salvation, believing that Jesus is LORD and savior, is impossible since they don't recognize Jesus for whom He really is. Further still: due to the teachings of the Watchtower society, NO Jehovah Witness, NONE, NOT ONE, think that they're saved nor do they have an idea on how salvation can happen. They adhere strictly to Watchtower documents and the fear that if they don't do enough work for their Church, they will not make it through Armegedeon. It's in interesting worldview in light of the fact that they do not believe you can go to heaven, nor do they believe in the existence of Hell.
The theology of following a different Christ is well established by Paul, even going so far as to call out Peter for following such practices. But the basic path to salvation is repent of sins, belief in Christ as Lord and that his work saves you. Mormons DO follow both check boxes. I tend to equate Mormons and Catholics under the same umbrella in this regard. Catholics lump a LOT of extra works and ceremonies into the path of salvation, even going so far as calling a mortal man's word as being higher than scripture (the pope). Does that mean Catholics aren't saved either?
It's an odd debate, but at the end of the day, there's a difference between faith and salvation. And if we're strictly speaking of Salvation, PERSONALLY, I think most Mormons are saved, even if they aren't what the orthodox would call "christian"
In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin. We are saved from both the power and penalty of sin.
In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin. We are saved from both the power and penalty of sin.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The answer is still no, salvation is not licence to sin.
When the Holy Spirit comes in to you, he will work on your heart and desires, re-aligning them toward the righteousness of God.
One who would justify sin as, 'But we're under grace, so I can sin freely.' are in violation. That is what this scripture is saying. A phrase that highlights this idea is when we say, 'someone is acting in bad faith.'
As wikipedia defines bad faith; is a sustained form of deception which consists of entertaining or pretending to entertain one set of feelings while acting as if influenced by another.[1] It is associated with hypocrisy, breach of contract, affectation, and lip service.[2] It may involve intentional deceit of others, or self-deception.
And the cherry on top:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Ok, so all that matters in Christianity is your own personal well being?
Throughout the Old Testament, the Lord tells you what he wants.
Micah 6:6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Micah 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Seems pretty, idk, selfish man. Basaically saying "I dont care if I leave behind hell on earth for my ancestors to suffer in, at least I got mine"
kinda fucked up
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Conservative Theology says that the Bible is God's Word, Infallible, this is the correct view.
If you want to delve into scholasticism and Liberal Theology, you can argue all manner of things about the Bible, but I won't call that Christian, as they deny the power of God.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
We have been given the full counsel of his word, so much more than in times past, that we may know God in greater measure.
Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Therefore:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
40 minute video. Complicated topic. I listened to it, but I disagree with many of the arguments.
Some bad argumentation he used (to paraphrase) included "If marriage didn't grant you salvation, the retraction and reapplication of marriage doesn't take it away". I can discuss that one further if anyone is interested.
There are good topics in there, like salvation for OT saints, and others that did not have access to the revealed Word.
Another topic is the entire faith vs. works bit, etc.
There is something to be said about an action being taken in good faith.
It's not the perfection of an action, it is the internal compulsion to perform service. Works is an expression of faith. Faith is an embraced internal nature. Christian faith is the embrace of one's inner Christ/ the new man/ the new creature/ the second Adam.
While a person's understanding of scripture and theology might not be in perfect alignment, there is a significant difference between an interpretation made in good faith and one that blatantly ignores in order to suit its own purposes. LDS, JWS, and Dispensationalists all ignore Biblical canon and Tradition.
I couldn't tell you where a person that calls themselves a 'Mormon' or Latter Day Saint today would be destined. Just like Saul to Paul, maybe God has a 180 planned for them. There are wheat and tares, and that is something that we may not always be able to readily see. The wheat of the world will be pulled toward the truth. LDS, JWS, and Dispensationalism are all fairly new religions, which makes it unsurprising that they each reject foundational aspects of Christianity.
I think that because it is possible for a good person to have an evil appearance (scripture warns about avoiding evil appearances), that it may be the case that someone may outwardly appear as a type of thing (or even verbally advertise themselves as that thing) but in truth and by nature are not that thing. A person raised as a Dispensationalist may hear the calling of truth and eventually make their way back to the proper Christian Biblical canon and Tradition.
If in the course of your long life and existence, if you never hear the calling of the Word, scripturally you are a Tare and not destined for salvation. Is it possible for someone in their dying moment to have a 180 by Divine intervention? Sure! Why would I claim that God couldn't do that if He so choose? That is why even the most seemingly wicked and cruel people can't be ruled out. God knows their heart even when we may not.
I never found the entire concept of placing bets on salvation to be a good avenue to pour energy into. Do your duty according to your nature. Sometimes that means shaking up others to suggest they are on a bad path, but really, in the end, it's not up to us to make that ultimate judgement call here and now, even if we sound like we are judging. We can only speak to what our faith tells us. If our faith compels us to yell at others to get off the train-tracks, it may be that our voice is instrumental in God's plan and necessary for cultivating a specific kind of perspective in those that are standing in danger's way. Again, it's that entire Saul-to-Paul dynamic. An enemy today may be a brother tomorrow. The seeds of kindness we plant today may grow into tomorrow's fruit.
From a Christian perspective a Mormon, JWS, or Dispensationalist will never find salvation as those things. But the ability for God to intervene in mysterious ways is always possible. Mormon, JWS, or Dispensationalists today would not be Mormon, JWS, or Dispensationalists in the kingdom of heaven.
There are no religions anymore, its just good VS evil. If you were able to have kids (god save you), I hope they were able to keep their biologically assigned gender.
[ + ]deleted
[ - ] deleted 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 21:21:17 ago (+3/-1)
[ + ] Ex_hack
[ - ] Ex_hack 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:17:04 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:18:58 ago (+2/-0)
yes i'm aware but the question is? can mormons be saved despite of their heretic views? this scholars thinks so
which i dont
[ + ] deleted
[ - ] deleted 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 21:22:23 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] bonghits4jeebus
[ - ] bonghits4jeebus 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 23:07:42 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:04:12 ago (+4/-2)
@polarvortex6601
4 hours ago
no, he's wrong here. scripture talks about those who preach and teach and hold another gospel. theology does matters, its true that the believer is saved by grace thru faith but mormons and jehova's witness and others have their theology really really wrong
for example the mormons believe that lucifer and jesus are best of pals when scripture refutes this false teaching. jehova witness doesnt believe that jesus is God in the flesh and dont even believe in the trinity painting the holy spirit as some type of force which is unscriptural .
doctrine matters because:
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
the naaman case and the zareptha widow were the exception not the rule. heiser gives an emotional appeal to salvation but again doctrine DOES MATTERS
otherwise, the quoted verses above wouldnt have made sense since the people that brought the other gospel were gnostics who denied the jesus came in the flesh. the mormons and jehova's witness hold similar ideas.
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:10:23 ago (+2/-0)
heiser also holds the view that the satan of JOB is not the same satan that tempted eve lol
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:11:37 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:14:05 ago (+2/-0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6tzNfqJ9-0&pp=ygUnaGVpc2VyIHRoZSBzYXRhbiBvZiBqb2IgaXMgbm90IHRoZSBzYW1l
each 8 mins long
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 21:12:07 ago (+2/-1)
As he notes, there was a challenge from ha'satan toward God. Reminiscent of another allusion to Satan/The Devil and Lucifer later in Isaiah as he rebuked Babylon;
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Furthermore, this is confirmed in Revelation;
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 22:46:29 ago (+2/-0)
how many lucifers are there? as far as i know there's just one accuser of the brethren. no job wasnt tempted by a lesser demon or a satan competitor (what?)
to me it was the same guy that tempted eve,job,jesus and judas. i think he's reading too much in to the text where the OG translators left as it was intended by holy spirit
i mean if the translators got it wrong. then can they be trusted? remember we christians hold that the scriptures are divinely inspired by God (oh by the way, he also holds the view that the writers of the bible werent inspired by God directly but that God allowed them to put their own input in the story sort of speak) so if it wasnt so then the whole religion goes down like a house of cards.
i have his book the unseem realm where he goes deeper in to this subject and honestly i disagree. the bible translators werent stupid.
satan is not a general office. he is a real malevolent beign that hates God and humanity.
btw, this dude died this year of pancreatic cancer. you dont get to play and alter the word of God like he seems to do in some instances like these.
you cannot add or substract anything that is written and implied too
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 1 point 1 yearApr 22, 2023 00:05:00 ago (+1/-0)*
I meant that the distinction he is trying to make doesn't matter/it's not there. Satan is a spirit too.
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
And Jesus famously said to Peter;
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Yet nobody today goes around thinking Peter is literally Satan.
[ + ] froggy
[ - ] froggy 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 22:50:07 ago (+1/-0)
Here's where the issues arise. In the case of Mormons, they do not believe that Jesus's death on the cross was the finishing work. "AFTER all you can do." They still believe that personal works are required for salvation, and that Jesus picks up the slack for you. However, every Mormon I have ever met has strongly professed a firm belief in Christ. So the question becomes: How much does God/Jesus care about what your secondary beliefs are if you attempt to follow Christ.
For JW's, it's a far more dire situation. Due to the way the Watchtower society has twisted and edited the Scripture, they believe Christ is not God in flesh, but rather the Arch Angel Michael. Thus, the primary tenet of salvation, believing that Jesus is LORD and savior, is impossible since they don't recognize Jesus for whom He really is. Further still: due to the teachings of the Watchtower society, NO Jehovah Witness, NONE, NOT ONE, think that they're saved nor do they have an idea on how salvation can happen. They adhere strictly to Watchtower documents and the fear that if they don't do enough work for their Church, they will not make it through Armegedeon. It's in interesting worldview in light of the fact that they do not believe you can go to heaven, nor do they believe in the existence of Hell.
TL:DR: Mormons, maybe. JW, Nope, fucked.
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 23:00:29 ago (+1/-0)
so sincerity triumphs over truth in case of the mormons? because its clear that those who teach another gospel are accursed or anathema.
i appreciate your honest opinion and contribution to the matter at hand though.
[ + ] froggy
[ - ] froggy 0 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 23:55:09 ago (+0/-0)
It's an odd debate, but at the end of the day, there's a difference between faith and salvation. And if we're strictly speaking of Salvation, PERSONALLY, I think most Mormons are saved, even if they aren't what the orthodox would call "christian"
[ + ]deleted
[ - ] deleted 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:05:39 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 4 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:09:40 ago (+4/-0)
In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin. We are saved from both the power and penalty of sin.
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 5 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:16:56 ago (+5/-0)
yep
[ + ] deleted
[ - ] deleted 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:18:40 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 3 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:22:28 ago (+3/-0)
where do you get this? the bible clearly teaches otherwise
[ + ] deleted
[ - ] deleted 0 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:24:05 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 3 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:47:46 ago (+3/-0)
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[ + ] deleted
[ - ] deleted 0 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 22:30:30 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 2 points 1 yearApr 22, 2023 00:18:25 ago (+2/-0)
The answer is still no, salvation is not licence to sin.
When the Holy Spirit comes in to you, he will work on your heart and desires, re-aligning them toward the righteousness of God.
One who would justify sin as, 'But we're under grace, so I can sin freely.' are in violation. That is what this scripture is saying. A phrase that highlights this idea is when we say, 'someone is acting in bad faith.'
As wikipedia defines bad faith; is a sustained form of deception which consists of entertaining or pretending to entertain one set of feelings while acting as if influenced by another.[1] It is associated with hypocrisy, breach of contract, affectation, and lip service.[2] It may involve intentional deceit of others, or self-deception.
And the cherry on top:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[ + ] deleted
[ - ] deleted 0 points 1 yearApr 22, 2023 00:49:27 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] deleted
[ - ] deleted -1 points 1 yearApr 22, 2023 00:40:12 ago (+0/-1)
[ + ] deleted
[ - ] deleted 0 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:14:52 ago (+1/-1)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:38:29 ago (+2/-0)
Throughout the Old Testament, the Lord tells you what he wants.
Micah 6:6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
Micah 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Conservative Theology says that the Bible is God's Word, Infallible, this is the correct view.
If you want to delve into scholasticism and Liberal Theology, you can argue all manner of things about the Bible, but I won't call that Christian, as they deny the power of God.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
We have been given the full counsel of his word, so much more than in times past, that we may know God in greater measure.
Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Therefore:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
[ + ] PhantomXLII
[ - ] PhantomXLII 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 21:31:12 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:08:13 ago (+2/-0)
1
a
: deliverance from the power and effects of sin
[ + ] deleted
[ - ] deleted 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:15:43 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] dosvydanya_freedomz
[ - ] dosvydanya_freedomz [op] 1 point 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:25:33 ago (+1/-0)
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/
you can read it by yourself online. happy reading!
[ + ] deleted
[ - ] deleted 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:26:26 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] Love240
[ - ] Love240 3 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:53:23 ago (+3/-0)
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[ + ] The_Reunto
[ - ] The_Reunto 2 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 21:31:45 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] The_Reunto
[ - ] The_Reunto 0 points 1 yearApr 22, 2023 11:49:43 ago (+0/-0)*
Some bad argumentation he used (to paraphrase) included "If marriage didn't grant you salvation, the retraction and reapplication of marriage doesn't take it away". I can discuss that one further if anyone is interested.
There are good topics in there, like salvation for OT saints, and others that did not have access to the revealed Word.
Another topic is the entire faith vs. works bit, etc.
There is something to be said about an action being taken in good faith.
It's not the perfection of an action, it is the internal compulsion to perform service. Works is an expression of faith. Faith is an embraced internal nature. Christian faith is the embrace of one's inner Christ/ the new man/ the new creature/ the second Adam.
While a person's understanding of scripture and theology might not be in perfect alignment, there is a significant difference between an interpretation made in good faith and one that blatantly ignores in order to suit its own purposes. LDS, JWS, and Dispensationalists all ignore Biblical canon and Tradition.
I couldn't tell you where a person that calls themselves a 'Mormon' or Latter Day Saint today would be destined. Just like Saul to Paul, maybe God has a 180 planned for them. There are wheat and tares, and that is something that we may not always be able to readily see. The wheat of the world will be pulled toward the truth. LDS, JWS, and Dispensationalism are all fairly new religions, which makes it unsurprising that they each reject foundational aspects of Christianity.
I think that because it is possible for a good person to have an evil appearance (scripture warns about avoiding evil appearances), that it may be the case that someone may outwardly appear as a type of thing (or even verbally advertise themselves as that thing) but in truth and by nature are not that thing. A person raised as a Dispensationalist may hear the calling of truth and eventually make their way back to the proper Christian Biblical canon and Tradition.
If in the course of your long life and existence, if you never hear the calling of the Word, scripturally you are a Tare and not destined for salvation. Is it possible for someone in their dying moment to have a 180 by Divine intervention? Sure! Why would I claim that God couldn't do that if He so choose? That is why even the most seemingly wicked and cruel people can't be ruled out. God knows their heart even when we may not.
I never found the entire concept of placing bets on salvation to be a good avenue to pour energy into. Do your duty according to your nature. Sometimes that means shaking up others to suggest they are on a bad path, but really, in the end, it's not up to us to make that ultimate judgement call here and now, even if we sound like we are judging. We can only speak to what our faith tells us. If our faith compels us to yell at others to get off the train-tracks, it may be that our voice is instrumental in God's plan and necessary for cultivating a specific kind of perspective in those that are standing in danger's way. Again, it's that entire Saul-to-Paul dynamic. An enemy today may be a brother tomorrow. The seeds of kindness we plant today may grow into tomorrow's fruit.
From a Christian perspective a Mormon, JWS, or Dispensationalist will never find salvation as those things. But the ability for God to intervene in mysterious ways is always possible. Mormon, JWS, or Dispensationalists today would not be Mormon, JWS, or Dispensationalists in the kingdom of heaven.
My two cents.
[ + ] Panic
[ - ] Panic 0 points 1 yearApr 22, 2023 00:05:32 ago (+0/-0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjf541gQREM
Ramen
[ + ] bonghits4jeebus
[ - ] bonghits4jeebus 0 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 23:06:48 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ]deleted
[ - ] deleted 0 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:16:52 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony -1 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 21:35:04 ago (+1/-2)
[ + ] UncleDoug
[ - ] UncleDoug 0 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 23:02:55 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] 2Drunk
[ - ] 2Drunk -3 points 1 yearApr 21, 2023 20:05:12 ago (+0/-3)
Shit is getting real.