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11

Understand what Aether is. Ideally before installing it.

submitted by GloryBeckons to TellUpgoat 3 yearsMay 22, 2022 19:04:18 ago (+11/-0)     (TellUpgoat)

Since more and more posts pushing Aether have been showing up...

From https://getaether.net/docs/tech/ --

"If you’re posting on Aether, you’re publishing content directly on your device, and other devices connect to your device to get that content, and then they share that content forward. So there’s no central server involved. Everyone keeps a copy of the data, and when new posts are added, everyone gets the new post and passes it on."

From https://getaether.net/docs/faq/how_private_is_aether/ (after a massive wall of marketing that attempts to minimize this) --

"[...] if someone really wanted to find you, they would insert a lot of dummy nodes into the network, and start to listen. Some of those nodes would receive content earlier than others. With enough nodes and enough time listening, they can close in on the node that has posted it, bit by bit, and then end up in front of your house. Aether could make it so that this is much less likely [...]. However, this would make the user experience worse [...], and it would not improve the privacy of the average user, only those that fall into the edge cases."

In other words:

By installing it, you're turning your computer into a node on their P2P network. You will automatically download, store, and upload arbitrary content directly to and from other users. This exposes your IP to all other users. Even though your own submissions don't have your IP directly attached to them, with a little bit of work anyone could figure it out and track you down. The author considers this a feature, not a flaw.

If you're okay with that, go for it. Just make sure you understand what it is you're signing up for.


22 comments block

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[ - ] MagicMushroom 0 points 3 yearsMay 24, 2022 15:17:37 ago (+1/-1)

[ - ] GloryBeckons [op] 1 point 3 yearsMay 24, 2022 16:10:15 ago (+1/-0)

Not sure why this got downvoted. Thanks for the additional details and conceding the potential vulnerabilities.

[ - ] account deleted by user 1 point 3 yearsMay 22, 2022 19:58:13 ago (+1/-0)

account deleted by user

[ - ] GloryBeckons [op] 2 points 3 yearsMay 22, 2022 20:22:42 ago (+2/-0)

To be fair, it is text-only.

Then again, there are some texts that could get you in trouble these days. Also, images, or anything else, can easily be encoded in text.

[ - ] account deleted by user 0 points 3 yearsMay 22, 2022 21:56:25 ago (+0/-0)

account deleted by user

[ - ] o0shad0o 1 point 3 yearsMay 22, 2022 19:31:33 ago (+1/-0)

The same is true of TOR and of many other such networks. There are ways to mitigate this sort of tracking but they inevitably slow network operation.

[ - ] GloryBeckons [op] 2 points 3 yearsMay 22, 2022 19:56:08 ago (+2/-0)

TOR makes significant efforts to mitigate this. Quite successfully. To the point that it is the standard anonymization tool for intelligence agents in the field.

Aether makes no such efforts. On the contrary, it deliberately makes using it together with Tor difficult to discourage it. Ctrl-F for TOR in the second link in the OP for more.

[ - ] localsal 0 points 3 yearsMay 22, 2022 19:08:35 ago (+0/-0)

Doesn't there also have to be a central place for people to grab the initial info from?

Even though it is p2p for posted info, there has to be the bootstrap server to allow for getting the info.

Much like how torrent sites are needed to actually select a torrent. Torrents don't just populate the client automatically (but I really wish there was a way) - a central bootstrapping process is needed.

[ - ] MagicMushroom 0 points 3 yearsMay 23, 2022 15:08:50 ago (+0/-0)

Aether has a bootstrap server, which is a convenience, not a necessity. Its IP address is hard-coded into the client. Its role is to help a newly installed client rapidly connect to the Aether network. You can go into settings and provide a different point for your client to connect, if you like. The bootstrap server was proven to be unnecessary when it went offline for 6 months or so. Aether's network functioned so well, nobody even noticed that it was offline for half a year!

[ - ] GloryBeckons [op] 0 points 3 yearsMay 22, 2022 20:18:59 ago (+0/-0)

When you post something, you are the initial peer that your post propagates from.

Didn't sound like there's any central server in the classical sense. Not sure how peer discovery works, didn't see any mention of it. Perhaps the client just ships with a list of permanently running nodes, and they exchange known peers from there.

Torrents actually do similar things with DHT, PEX and magnet links. You don't really need torrent sites or trackers. They're just a convenient way to find torrents and build communities that reward seeding. The protocol can find peers without a central tracker... although you could argue the DHT nodes it uses to do that effectively serve the same role.

[ - ] localsal 0 points 3 yearsMay 22, 2022 21:52:19 ago (+0/-0)

There has to be a way to get the initial link, right?

How does my client find the torrent for Halo season 1 by itself? It can't. I have to get the data from somewhere. Sure, it could be from an email, or from a sneakernet, etc, but how often does that happen?

I am not talking about the comments, but the actual startup to get to the community. How does the "search for 'goat' " actually happen? Probably a central database somewhere is my guess - which could be wrong.

Most likely all of these services use some sort of convenient central bootstrap server to populate all of the groups or whatever before any client can join to make comments.

[ - ] GloryBeckons [op] 0 points 3 yearsMay 23, 2022 04:04:30 ago (+0/-0)

Without getting technical:

How do you find something without a central authority that knows everything?

If you know a few neighbors, you can just ask them: "have you heard about X?"

If they have, they'll let you know and get you started. If not, they'll ask their neighbors. Who may either know something or pass the question along to their neighbors. The question cascades outward until it encounters someone who knows something, and the information is passed back to you, either by address or by walking the daisy chain backwards.

It's not a new concept. The entire internet protocol is built on a form of this. There is no single central authority that issues or knows about all IPs. There's no physical wire that leads from you, or your ISP, directly to every single computer connected to the internet. So how can you connect to an IP anywhere on the planet? You can't, and you don't. You wrap your message in a packet, put a destination address on it (that's the IP), hand it to your internet neighbor (usually your ISP), who hands it to theirs, and so on and so forth. Until it gets to where its supposed to go. TCP connections are an illusion built on top of this.

[ - ] localsal 1 point 3 yearsMay 23, 2022 09:04:47 ago (+1/-0)

Adhoc mesh networks seem to be hold promise in that regard, but the current state of the internet does not consist of a p2p architecture.

Everything in the current internet is centralized.

People have to connect to their ISP - centralized.

The ISPs have to connect to a backbone server - centralized.

Just because there are several backbone servers doesn't mean things aren't centralized. Why does cutting fiber cable take down the internet for a large area? centralized.

It is definitely becoming less centralized as more and more fiber is laid out, but a lot of the new fiber is still going to datacenters. The biggest new distributed fiber rollout has gone to the 5G towers to get low latency on a short range technology. But that is still centralized - all the cell towers go to a datacenter, etc.

The internet as we see it is very much like a published newspaper - one central location that then distributes the information out to nodes (paperboys) who feed the users.

Back around the 2000s, there were a total of around 7 main backbone servers, and taking out all of them would have shut down the internet. I'm sure there are many more today - probably hundreds of times more - but they are still small in number compared to the number of users.

p2p is just a protocol on top of the fiber network that routes through a limited number of backbone servers.

The only way for any application to be truly p2p from the start is for the client to have a builtin "download and republish everything" setting. It doesn't seem hard to do, but the first loadup time would be very slow, as it populates everything.

That might be a turnoff for a lot of potential users.

[ - ] MagicMushroom 0 points 3 yearsMay 23, 2022 15:13:44 ago (+0/-0)

I think Aether's "download and republish everything" solution is to be ephemeral. By default, after 6 months of non-interaction, content becomes "stale" and drops out of view from the client. So Aether "downloads and republishes everything" from the past 6 months, effectively. This constraint also keeps Aether's network fast.

[ - ] localsal 0 points 3 yearsMay 23, 2022 21:51:46 ago (+0/-0)

Where is the download received from?

My guess is a central repository/server that a clean client has the address to.

My analogy to a true "download and republish" technology - which doesn't exist - would be a way for bittorrent to download every torrent/magnet available that has ever been created.

Sure, you can set up a filter to kill torrents that are x years old, or that don't have seeders, etc, but a first file that automatically propagates every time the client is opened would be how my ideal system would work.

Every time the client is opened, the call goes out to retrieve the entirety of the internet - and can do whatever it needs to find new torrents vs ones already populated.

And this pull would act as a constantly running torrent - which would then meet the definition of 100% p2p. Any peer could fill in gaps and add info as the client is started.

The tradeoff is obviously speed, as downloading 1-2GB of new torrents every day would be a) slow to start, and b) hell to parse through every single day.

Even doing a daily search on torrent sites can be very lengthy - looking for any specific uploads through the hundreds/thousands of new entries on the websites.

This could be simplified by creating a hierarchy of sorts. Start with a number of categories/groups, which can be selected in a preferences tab. Then within each group, set submenus for all the different options that can also be selected. Finally, every post in the selected categories is downloaded and indexed, searchable by text, newness, etc.

Doing all of this inside the client would make it a truly p2p application.

Having to hit "download" without having any peers means there is a centralized known repository.

[ - ] GloryBeckons [op] 0 points 3 yearsMay 23, 2022 16:23:15 ago (+0/-0)

People have to connect to their ISP - centralized.

Not really. Not as a design limitation of the technology. Only as a matter of convenience in practice.

You could run an ethernet cable to your neighbor's router. And he could run one to his neighbor's. And so on and so forth. Could do the same with a few wifi adapters running in hotspot mode, to avoid all the cables. But it's easier and more performant to connect to an ISP, so that's what people do.

The technology doesn't force this. It's a matter of practicality and convenience. Form follows function.

The only way for any application to be truly p2p from the start is for the client to have a builtin "download and republish everything" setting.

You don't need to download everything. You just need to have a strategy to find anything. The only bootstrapping hurdle is connecting to the first peer, who can then tell you about other peers and forward your search queries.

[ - ] localsal 0 points 3 yearsMay 23, 2022 21:40:43 ago (+0/-0)

It isn't practical to allow someone else to penetrate your home for any reason.

I would also counter that someone has to connect to an ISP to get outside information. Otherwise the neighborhood will become a faceberg echo chamber of neighbors just circle jerking the same talking points over and over.

How do you find that first peer? If I open aether, it is just a blank screen until something downloads. If I open bittorrent, it is just a blank screen until I find a link on a website to load into it.

You are trying to win an argument by bringing up exceptions and non-use cases. Who connects - or allows - to someone elses internet? We all learned long ago that open connections were bad because of bad actors.

Why are wireless mesh networks more popular? Where is an example of one that actually succeeded?

Give me an example of a real life p2p internet to study. I know there were a few places that tried to start a mesh network. Since I haven't heard more about those, I would imagine bad actors, or legal liability, or just bandwidth issues connecting to the ISP, or the ISP saying NO to it caused it to shut down.

Much like the niggers that bought a bunch of land somewhere (Georgia somewhere?) to allow nigger farmers to "flourish" LMAO - not gonna go anywhere because human nature cannot be contained, and humans (niggers especially LOL) are not nice people when anonymous.

[ - ] GloryBeckons [op] 0 points 3 yearsMay 23, 2022 22:04:21 ago (+0/-0)

You seem to be confused. I wasn't trying to win anything. I was merely trying to be helpful, and provide information in response to your queries. Apparently, somewhere along the way, you decided that this was some sort of competition you needed to win, instead of appreciating that someone is taking the time to spoonfeed you information that you could just research on your own. I'm not interested in winning anything or proving anything to you... so have fun with that, by yourself.

[ - ] localsal 0 points 3 yearsMay 23, 2022 23:30:25 ago (+0/-0)

That's all fine and good for you, but your information is neither informative or useful, as your use cases do not exist.

Where is the in use open mesh network?

Where is any truly p2p application without a central repository?

If you want to inform people, don't give hypotheticals, show real life examples that people can learn and explore.

I have researched it, and found zero actual real world cases that worked. My searching isn't all encompassing, but it isn't just a one and done either.

I have given examples of how things are today - central servers and repositories to start the process. Any counter examples would be welcomed to look into.

I am entirely open to being proven wrong, but with facts and not hypotheticals or theories. I want to see a neighborhood with open internet not tied to an ISP or central server. I want to see people freely connecting anonymously and enjoying free service.

Why am I forced to pay $95/mo for terrible internet service? Where is the free and open mesh network?

Even google fiber stopped expanding, with the promise of $5/mo internet.

I do want to see every ISP shut down as free internet emerges. Starlink is crazy expensive to start with - and uses a centralized network.

I would never let my neighbors use my electricity or water or internet - not just because I am an asshole - which I am - but because there is zero control over how it is used after the connection. I don't need a $4000 water bill because my idiot neighbor decides to fill every swimming pool he can find. Or a warning from an ISP for downloading, or even over my monthly bandwidth allotment.

[ - ] GloryBeckons [op] 0 points 3 yearsMay 24, 2022 05:47:42 ago (+0/-0)

Where is any truly p2p application without a central repository?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_hash_table

I want to see a neighborhood with open internet not tied to an ISP or central server ... Where is the free and open mesh network? ... I would never let my neighbors use my electricity or water or internet ... because there is zero control over how it is used after the connection

You answer your own question. You claim to want a mesh net, but you refuse to participate in a mesh net. Then you wonder why there are no mesh nets around. It's a real mystery.

As I already said: There is nothing about existing internet technology that prevents it from being used that way. That's not hypothetical. That is fact.

Fundamentally, the internet was and is designed to be a P2P meshnet. The centralized structures you see and complain about are organizational optimizations that emerged because they solve common problems and limitations. People use and prefer them because they are effective and convenient.

Your attitude reminds me of anarchists and libertarians, who beg and yearn and plead for anarchy and unregulated freedom, insisting it will solve all the world's problems. But, the moment they get what they asked for, at the first sign of inevitable trouble, they cry for authorities to come save and protect them: Why won't somebody do something? Well, they do. And so a hierarchy emerges. And now you have a "centralized" structure. And the crying begins anew.
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