I have a hypothetical, and also would like more information. Feel free to correct me if I am using the wrong terminology or flat out wrong in any areas, i am trying to get a better understanding of this. I have been a lurker for a while and most of you have had very constructive thoughts so I want to say thank you for starters.
I am learning about haplogroups, and to my understanding, if a r1b breeds with another r1b the only possible outcome would be another r1b. And im not even sure that is correct, and im thinking out loud as well, but to my understanding if a r1b were to breed with a o2b for example, that would create a basically undistinguishable label, as they would be so far and few there wouldn’t be enough to label as a group. Again correct me if im wrong.
Now my other question would be let’s say someone had 1/4 o2b, and 3/4 r1b, and bred with a full r1b, would that get them close enough to be considered r1b or would it take multiple generations of r1b? Or is that possible at all? Additionally, what are the behaviors, characteristics and pros and cons of o2b and other haplogroups, as I have not found anything online in regards to that. Let’s say you find a Jew woke 1/4 o2b 3/4r1b would there be any benefit to the o2b or would A r1b be wasting his genetics so to speak?
Hopefully this question can be received as genuine curiosity and not a promotion of race mixing. And if anything will help articulate my own and others foundation for a anti race mixing stance. Links welcome. Thank you
R1B is on the y chromosome. Only men carry it and men can't breed with each other. The only way R1B can change is through very slow random mutation.
This is why it's useful to track shifting populations over time: It shows where the men went and where the men were replaced.
The opposite of this is mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondria have their own DNA which all humans have but inherit only from their mother. Sperm have mitochondriae but they don't become part of the new fetus, only mitochondriae from the eggs are used. This can be used to track female bloodlines, but those are less useful for tracking population shifts and major historical events because women are more easily integrated into new populations.
Haplogroup designations are like an address to a place in the genome. So r1a is a set of genes in one chromosome and o2b are a different set of genes in another chromosome.
so you can't have 1/4 r1a. Either you have it (100%) or you don't (0%). There's no such thing as 50% r1a.
What you may be thinking about is probability, if a r1a and o2b were to have a child, here are the possible permutations of the child. Each box below represents a 1/4 chance of a permutation.
As for behaviors. It's most probable that r1a & o2b don't have any emergent properties. 99% of gene mutations don't code protein.
It was just discovered as a matter of genetic statistical analysis that there is a high correlation of r1a in Northern European populations, so it's a good indicator that someone is probably Northern European. That's why we use it. It's a good genetic landmark.
While what you are saying is true in general; for humans, Y-chromosome haplogroups are only passed down via the male ancestor. So designations such as R1a and R1b are passed intact from father to son (and not at all to the XX descendents: i.e. daughters). This is why they are useful in determining paternal lineage, much in the same way as the mitochondrial dna (which only comes from the mother) are useful in determining maternal lineage.
You cannot get 1/2 of your fathers Y-chromosome, nominally (if you are male) you get the entire identical thing; however there can occur mutation, insertion or deletion (though perhaps not along the haplogroup marker part of the chromosome) during recombination.
The first punnet square is if a r1a mated with a r1a. (no race mixing) 2nd punnet square is if a r1a mated with a o2b. (race mixing) 3rd is if an o2b mated with an o2b. (no race mixing)
Ok yeah thanks that cleared it up a bit, my underlying question is someone I know met a someone who’s genetic makeup is, paternal grandparents, both danish, dad is 6’5 and blonde, with blue eyes. Maternal side is where it gets tricky, maternal grandmother, full Japanese, maternal grandfather, full Italian. (Mom half Italian/Japanese, dad full danish) That combination ended up producing a tall, green eyed and blonde haired, white skinned person, with the only indication of Japanese ancestry being the eye shape, and skull/face shape. Take the last described person, and mix them with a scots/Irish, WASP, (blue eyes and red and brown hair) what would the probable outcome be and as a white nationalist would that person be breaking the rules so to speak and could they end up with a very chinky looking offspring? Would they be dooming their child to a life of confusion and unacceptance?
[ - ] Grymes22 1 point 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 05:09:15 ago (+1/-0)
Y-chromosome haplogroups are not useful for determining specific traits in this way.
Some of the traits you mention (such as eye color) are carried on particular genes and are referred to as "Mendelian" (after Gregor Mendel) and probabilities can be determined by punnet square analyses such as the ones above by examining which alleles are carried by each parent.
Others (such as height) are determined by a large number of genes and are influenced by interaction with the environment (and are called "polygenetic"). These are possible to estimate with full sequences of each parent; but depending on trait, current predictive accuracy ranges from "fair estimate" to "wild guess".
It sounds like you are somewhat concerned with skull morphology. You may be interested in the work of the ENIGMA project: https://enigma.ini.usc.edu/ and some of the work done on identifying the loci of Neanderthal or Denisovian admixture on skull and brain development (e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28740249/).
Was just enjoying your breakdown. Right after you guys were done discussing specific haplogroup combinations, he asked a question on how to apply that to a real life scenario of his Dutch and Japanese friends children.
I guess I never saw that question and never answered it. All this depends on which chromosomes are being tracked. Autosomes get tricky because the mix together. There's a lot of genetic drift that occurs on Autosomes and you can't reliably trace any specific gene. You have to apply some complex statistical analysis to them if you want to trace anything useful. For instance, lactase persistence, or eye color.
The Y chromosome and mt-DNA doesn't drift though. That's why we use it to track genealogy.
I won’t pretend that I’ll be able to wrap my mind around that to any significant degree. But I was managing to keep up with that particular thread and was just wondering how it would have applied. Thanks.
Thank you, I have follow up questions if you have time, can you expand on the behaviors and not having emergent properties, to my understanding that would mean there are no differences aside from looks or am I missing something? What’s the significance of in breeding or racial purity if that is the case? Wouldn’t o2b be mongoloid and r1b caucasoid? Second, the lower two boxes have the same top two inputs (for lack of better word), but 8 different combinations, is that correct? Do you trust genetic testing such as 23and me and others? If you do, would there be any significance of doing your own and your partners, and would you be able to read them in a way to see if it is compatible or, advancing the breed so to speak? Again I might be way off in some area this is way outside my line of work but it’s all very interesting to me.
r1a is just one haplogroup. There are millions and millions of haplogroups.
Like I said. 99% of genes don't encode protien (they do nothing). Only 1% of our genes do stuff.
So, if you want to talk about, say, the gene for lactose tolerance, it's the same conversation, just the designation would be a different gene instead of r1a.
A race isn't defined by just 1 gene. It's defined by THOUSANDS of different genes. Some for skin color. Some for hair color. Some for IQ. It takes THOUSANDS of genes to encode all this information.
The only reason we use r1a specifically is because it has a high statistical correlation with all these thousands of other genes.
As for the boxes. If you don't get what's going on there. Look up "Punnet square". Throw out the parts about dominant and recessive genes because they probably don't apply much to this conversation unless we are talking about eye color. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 07:20:57 ago (+1/-0)*
This is why it's useful to track shifting populations over time: It shows where the men went and where the men were replaced.
The opposite of this is mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondria have their own DNA which all humans have but inherit only from their mother. Sperm have mitochondriae but they don't become part of the new fetus, only mitochondriae from the eggs are used. This can be used to track female bloodlines, but those are less useful for tracking population shifts and major historical events because women are more easily integrated into new populations.
[ + ] derpfroot
[ - ] derpfroot 1 point 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 13:11:42 ago (+1/-0)
bigot.
[ + ] 3Whuurs
[ - ] 3Whuurs 0 points 2.3 yearsMar 3, 2023 04:04:33 ago (+0/-0)
Fascinating! Didn’t know that one.
[ + ] Master_Foo
[ - ] Master_Foo 3 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 02:59:29 ago (+3/-0)*
so you can't have 1/4 r1a. Either you have it (100%) or you don't (0%). There's no such thing as 50% r1a.
What you may be thinking about is probability, if a r1a and o2b were to have a child, here are the possible permutations of the child.
Each box below represents a 1/4 chance of a permutation.
r1a & r1a mate
+---------+---------+
|...r1a...|...r1a...|
+---------+---------+
|...r1a...|...r1a..|
+---------+---------+
r1a & o2b mate
+-------------+---------------+
|...r1a.......|...r1a & o2b...|
+-------------+---------------+
|...neither...|......o2b......|
+-------------+---------------+
o2b & o2b mate
+---------+---------+
|...o2b...|...o2b...|
+---------+---------+
|...o2b...|...o2b...|
+---------+---------+
As for behaviors. It's most probable that r1a & o2b don't have any emergent properties. 99% of gene mutations don't code protein.
It was just discovered as a matter of genetic statistical analysis that there is a high correlation of r1a in Northern European populations, so it's a good indicator that someone is probably Northern European. That's why we use it. It's a good genetic landmark.
[ + ] Grymes22
[ - ] Grymes22 2 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 04:25:24 ago (+2/-0)
You cannot get 1/2 of your fathers Y-chromosome, nominally (if you are male) you get the entire identical thing; however there can occur mutation, insertion or deletion (though perhaps not along the haplogroup marker part of the chromosome) during recombination.
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler 1 point 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 03:42:17 ago (+1/-0)
I think that's what confused him.
[ + ] Master_Foo
[ - ] Master_Foo 2 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 04:00:20 ago (+2/-0)
The first punnet square is if a r1a mated with a r1a. (no race mixing)
2nd punnet square is if a r1a mated with a o2b. (race mixing)
3rd is if an o2b mated with an o2b. (no race mixing)
[ + ] GLRreincarnate
[ - ] GLRreincarnate [op] 2 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 04:26:00 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] Grymes22
[ - ] Grymes22 1 point 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 05:09:15 ago (+1/-0)
Some of the traits you mention (such as eye color) are carried on particular genes and are referred to as "Mendelian" (after Gregor Mendel) and probabilities can be determined by punnet square analyses such as the ones above by examining which alleles are carried by each parent.
Others (such as height) are determined by a large number of genes and are influenced by interaction with the environment (and are called "polygenetic"). These are possible to estimate with full sequences of each parent; but depending on trait, current predictive accuracy ranges from "fair estimate" to "wild guess".
It sounds like you are somewhat concerned with skull morphology. You may be interested in the work of the ENIGMA project: https://enigma.ini.usc.edu/ and some of the work done on identifying the loci of Neanderthal or Denisovian admixture on skull and brain development (e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28740249/).
[ + ] 3Whuurs
[ - ] 3Whuurs 0 points 2.3 yearsMar 3, 2023 04:06:04 ago (+0/-0)
Was hoping you’d jump back in on this one.
[ + ] Master_Foo
[ - ] Master_Foo 0 points 2.3 yearsMar 3, 2023 04:14:13 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] 3Whuurs
[ - ] 3Whuurs 0 points 2.3 yearsMar 3, 2023 04:29:53 ago (+0/-0)
Right after you guys were done discussing specific haplogroup combinations, he asked a question on how to apply that to a real life scenario of his Dutch and Japanese friends children.
[ + ] Master_Foo
[ - ] Master_Foo 0 points 2.3 yearsMar 3, 2023 05:01:33 ago (+0/-0)
All this depends on which chromosomes are being tracked. Autosomes get tricky because the mix together. There's a lot of genetic drift that occurs on Autosomes and you can't reliably trace any specific gene. You have to apply some complex statistical analysis to them if you want to trace anything useful.
For instance, lactase persistence, or eye color.
The Y chromosome and mt-DNA doesn't drift though. That's why we use it to track genealogy.
It's a lot to slog through, but comprehensive.
Watch all the videos on this channel. Start with oldest first.
https://www.youtube.com/@geonomad1/videos
[ + ] 3Whuurs
[ - ] 3Whuurs 0 points 2.3 yearsMar 3, 2023 22:41:41 ago (+0/-0)
But I was managing to keep up with that particular thread and was just wondering how it would have applied.
Thanks.
[ + ] GLRreincarnate
[ - ] GLRreincarnate [op] 0 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 03:15:35 ago (+0/-0)
Second, the lower two boxes have the same top two inputs (for lack of better word), but 8 different combinations, is that correct?
Do you trust genetic testing such as 23and me and others?
If you do, would there be any significance of doing your own and your partners, and would you be able to read them in a way to see if it is compatible or, advancing the breed so to speak? Again I might be way off in some area this is way outside my line of work but it’s all very interesting to me.
[ + ] Master_Foo
[ - ] Master_Foo 0 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 03:25:30 ago (+0/-0)
Like I said. 99% of genes don't encode protien (they do nothing). Only 1% of our genes do stuff.
So, if you want to talk about, say, the gene for lactose tolerance, it's the same conversation, just the designation would be a different gene instead of r1a.
A race isn't defined by just 1 gene. It's defined by THOUSANDS of different genes. Some for skin color. Some for hair color. Some for IQ. It takes THOUSANDS of genes to encode all this information.
The only reason we use r1a specifically is because it has a high statistical correlation with all these thousands of other genes.
As for the boxes. If you don't get what's going on there. Look up "Punnet square". Throw out the parts about dominant and recessive genes because they probably don't apply much to this conversation unless we are talking about eye color.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler 0 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 02:40:30 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] GLRreincarnate
[ - ] GLRreincarnate [op] 0 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 02:49:13 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] SecretHitler
[ - ] SecretHitler 0 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 03:35:18 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] paul_neri
[ - ] paul_neri 0 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 02:33:19 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] lord_nougat
[ - ] lord_nougat 1 point 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 03:06:10 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] GLRreincarnate
[ - ] GLRreincarnate [op] 0 points 3 yearsMay 16, 2022 02:38:26 ago (+0/-0)