submitted by v0atmage to newz3 yearsApr 17, 2022 17:12:54 ago (+4/-1) (newz)
On the tlolocaust podcast we were discussing the feasibility of your grand plans for airships @rhy and the consensus was large ships would not scale. You would need too massive of a balloon to keep them afloat, essentially. In addition to the size the helium costs could be hundreds of thousands of dollars for just one trip.
Have you thought around that aspect of the problem yet?
PS: Is that google ex employee interview still happening?
It only went bad one time! Geez, you people never let one little accident go do you? Just because you stub your toe one time on a bed leg doesn't mean that you get rid of the bed.
Hydrogen is perfectly save in the 0-4% range and 96-100% pure range. It is when oxygen mixes in the middle range that things go poof.
Another aspect of hydrogen that is overlooked is the radiation spectrum during burning. Carbon burns in the infrared range - which is why we feel "heat" and that in turn adds energy to other objects, spreading the fire.
Hydrogen does not burn in the infrared range, and if there are no other carbon based objects in the direct flame, a hydrogen fire will not spread.
The issue with the Hindenburg was the coating - which needed a very thick layer (which was flammable, unfortunately) to keep the hydrogen inside. The actual structure burning is what caused all of the mayhem - not the hydrogen.
Hydrogen also tends to want to leak out of anything it is in - especially light things. Material technology is probably advanced enough to produce good lightweight materials to contain hydrogen for workable durations.
I like hydrogen. It's a lot like CO2 except when I pump it into the back of the van I don't have to drag anything out and there's no clean up whatsoever! It's a clean fuel. All the evidence dirt is whisked away.
You are correct. The tech has expanded, but the original problems of mass storage still exist - it leaks and corrodes anything it is in. Plus the little problem with reacting pretty aggressively with oxygen when the right percentage.
Low pressure hydrogen isn't too bad because it doesn't take a lot to keep it in for a short duration, and the new materials can be pretty good containers.
Overall, buoyancy in air solutions are pretty poor though - because of the low density of air.
To buoy up 1kg of weigh takes roughly 1m^3 of hydrogen/helium. Now multiply that by the mass needed to make things actually functional. That's why the zeppelins were so large for a relatively small crew/traveler count.
Going fast in a thin skin/frame is also not a thing (relative to the air currents), as the skin will be ripped apart quite easily in a huge craft.
Passengers are allowed to book passage on cargo ships, if they wish - but very few do, because few people have the luxury of spare time for shipboard travel.
I think that's the idea. Basically he postulates that the Hindenburg event ruined the reputation of hydrogen, and that hydrogen can in fact be used safely. All while wearing rad cocaine shades.
[ - ] rhy 1 point 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 19:34:54 ago (+1/-0)
Yes. Hydrogen and Nitrogen do not react absent a catalyst. The idea is to ensure no Hydrogen ever leaks beyond the Nitrogen containment, and for the Nitrogen containment to be continuously flushed of any Hydrogen. This is essentially what they do now in commercial hydrogen facilities: The entire atmosphere inside the facility is pure nitrogen. So to be in that environment you need an oxygen respirator. Most of our atmosphere is nitrogen at room temperature/pressure anyway, so there are virtually no toxic or other adverse effects: You just need an oxygen supply if you are going to spend time in the pure nitrogen cell. Which is not the plan, by the way.
[ - ] rhy 1 point 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 19:53:10 ago (+1/-0)
Actually, the more you scale up the easier it is. Helium is not the plan. Hydrogen for sure. Which the AirShips will be able to collect directly from electrolysis of water (which will be collected from an intake on the bottom of the AirShip during a water landing, salt water will also work, since you're going to purify it through electrolysis anyway).
The plan is for them to be able to fly with NO hydrogen because they will have enough thrust (at least for a short time for controlled emergency landing, etc.).
Then the plan is to scale up after lots and lots of software work. The piloting blockchain is going to be the biggest difficulty in the project, and require the most resources. The physical and mechanical functions have all been done before, and in the early era of AirShips they lacked several essential devices we have now. Especially a working altimeter!
Thanks for the taking the time to explain it. I'm with you on the hydrogen over helium argument. "Fueling" using the water the ship lands on sounds almost too good to be true but I very much see the appeal and resourcefulness of that approach and hope it works.
The plan is for them to be able to fly with NO hydrogen because they will have enough thrust (at least for a short time for controlled emergency landing, etc.
That's ambitious but awesome if possible too!
The piloting blockchain is going to be the biggest difficulty in the project, and require the most resources
As a blockchain enthusiast, is there somewhere to learn more about this piece of the project?
[ + ] Spaceman84
[ - ] Spaceman84 4 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 17:53:27 ago (+4/-0)
[ + ] v0atmage
[ - ] v0atmage [op] 2 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 17:55:44 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] RMGoetbbels
[ - ] RMGoetbbels 3 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 19:09:59 ago (+3/-0)
[ + ] rhy
[ - ] rhy 1 point 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 19:30:43 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] localsal
[ - ] localsal 2 points 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 11:04:29 ago (+2/-0)
Another aspect of hydrogen that is overlooked is the radiation spectrum during burning. Carbon burns in the infrared range - which is why we feel "heat" and that in turn adds energy to other objects, spreading the fire.
Hydrogen does not burn in the infrared range, and if there are no other carbon based objects in the direct flame, a hydrogen fire will not spread.
The issue with the Hindenburg was the coating - which needed a very thick layer (which was flammable, unfortunately) to keep the hydrogen inside. The actual structure burning is what caused all of the mayhem - not the hydrogen.
Hydrogen also tends to want to leak out of anything it is in - especially light things. Material technology is probably advanced enough to produce good lightweight materials to contain hydrogen for workable durations.
[ + ] rhy
[ - ] rhy 0 points 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 19:31:49 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] RMGoetbbels
[ - ] RMGoetbbels 0 points 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 20:44:39 ago (+0/-0)
evidencedirt is whisked away.[ + ] localsal
[ - ] localsal 0 points 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 21:37:57 ago (+0/-0)
Low pressure hydrogen isn't too bad because it doesn't take a lot to keep it in for a short duration, and the new materials can be pretty good containers.
Overall, buoyancy in air solutions are pretty poor though - because of the low density of air.
To buoy up 1kg of weigh takes roughly 1m^3 of hydrogen/helium. Now multiply that by the mass needed to make things actually functional. That's why the zeppelins were so large for a relatively small crew/traveler count.
Going fast in a thin skin/frame is also not a thing (relative to the air currents), as the skin will be ripped apart quite easily in a huge craft.
Passengers are allowed to book passage on cargo ships, if they wish - but very few do, because few people have the luxury of spare time for shipboard travel.
[ + ] loud_niglet
[ - ] loud_niglet 1 point 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 18:22:45 ago (+2/-1)
[ + ] bosunmoon
[ - ] bosunmoon 2 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 19:17:58 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] v0atmage
[ - ] v0atmage [op] 1 point 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 19:23:53 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] bosunmoon
[ - ] bosunmoon 3 points 3 yearsApr 17, 2022 20:44:46 ago (+3/-0)
[ + ] rhy
[ - ] rhy 1 point 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 19:34:54 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] rhy
[ - ] rhy 1 point 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 19:44:58 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] rhy
[ - ] rhy 1 point 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 19:53:10 ago (+1/-0)
The plan is for them to be able to fly with NO hydrogen because they will have enough thrust (at least for a short time for controlled emergency landing, etc.).
Then the plan is to scale up after lots and lots of software work. The piloting blockchain is going to be the biggest difficulty in the project, and require the most resources. The physical and mechanical functions have all been done before, and in the early era of AirShips they lacked several essential devices we have now. Especially a working altimeter!
[ + ] v0atmage
[ - ] v0atmage [op] 0 points 3 yearsApr 18, 2022 20:23:44 ago (+0/-0)
That's ambitious but awesome if possible too!
As a blockchain enthusiast, is there somewhere to learn more about this piece of the project?