Original closet homo junior senator from Illinois to ascend to the Presidency. First administration with jews in the cabinet. Protected the (((carpetbaggers))) from his own generals. 'Nondenominational Christian' who preferred The Old Testament (Torah).
Fuck off, I said it was a dumb question, but I think asking the question means I'm at least trying to 'think'. And you fucking links still leave the question up for debate. so fuck off.
The wealthiest southerners and largest slave holders were southern (eastern) English, many descended from second sons of wealthy landed aristocrats back in England. Very anglo-saxony. They grabbed up large chunks of the best farmland in the coastal south early on. Celtic types like welsh, scotch irish, northern english groups settled the hilly inlands of appalachia. You can hear the difference in coastal non-rhotic southern drawl vs the twangy southern hill billies.
New England was very much settled by mor anglo SE English (puritans). I guess in places like NY and NJ you had a lot of dutch blood and some swedish and south-east english but also later on plenty of those celticky presbyterians from scotland, ireland, N. England. and some welsh methodists— again mostly settling further inland.
That hard r is a real shibboleth for people from more celtic parts of Britain— only SE Britain dropped their Rs in the 1600s . New Englanders drop their R, New York City speakers, and coastal Southerners. The rest was settled largely by ‘wilder’ more celtic parts of the British Isles.
Revisionist bullshit. The South seceded from the United States because Lincoln got elected, and Lincoln was intent on not allowing slavery to spread into the new territories. Lincoln was equally intent on not allowing the South to secede. Hence war was inevitable.
Don't believe me? Then believe the articles for secession, in which the Southern states explicitly laid out their reasons for seceding. Slavery, slavery, and more slavery. Just one example from South Carolina, the first state to secede:
"A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery."
"encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States"
Rights about what? Oh, right, slavery:
"But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution."
Slavery was clearly explained as a symptom of a larger problem, and any other interpretation is sophistry.
Bull. Shit. The issue was over slavery, and surrounding issues were coached in those terms.
Thanks for attending my TED talk, fuck you.
Thanks for playing. Collect your door prize of organic soil fertilizer on the way out.
Lincoln only wanted the South to pay the tariff. That was the ONLY reason for the invasion.
Lincoln insisted on preserving the Union. The South seceded after Lincoln got elected because he was hostile to slavery. The tariff was enacted only after the South seceded. Period.
According to the OP the tariff not only preexisted him but was continually being hiked.
Yes, my bad. I got this mixed up with Lincoln blockading the South. Doesn't change the fact that slavery was the prime cause of the secession, and Lincoln was intent on preserving the Union at all costs. Also, tariffs had actually decreased in 1857 and 1846, before the first state seceded in 1860.
You really went full retard on this statement. Tariff issues WERE a major concern, along with slavery. Slavery because without new slave states, they knew slavery was going away via majority rule. Hence why kansas was such a battlefield. if Kansas entered union as a Free Stste, slavery was done for. Tying that with Lincoln's election forced the secession to happen when it did.
I already acknowledged my mistake on tariffs in another comment, which you probably read, but chose to ignore, including the REDUCTION of tariffs in 1857 and 1846. Funny how you left that part out:
"Yes, my bad. I got this mixed up with Lincoln blockading the South. Doesn't change the fact that slavery was the prime cause of the secession, and Lincoln was intent on preserving the Union at all costs. Also, tariffs had actually decreased in 1857 and 1846, before the first state seceded in 1860."
To state that slavery was the one and only issue is false.
It was the primary issue. There would have been no civil war without it. There would have been a civil war with slavery dividing the country but without tariffs dividing the country. Some northerner states were impacted negatively by tariffs, and recent cutbacks to tariffs showed that it wasn't the bright line that slavery was. Tariffs didn't even get a mention in South Carolina's declaration of causes for secession.
[ - ] HughBriss 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 13:19:24 ago (+1/-0)
Lincoln insisted on preserving the Union. The South seceded after Lincoln got elected because he was hostile to slavery. The tariff was enacted only after the South seceded. Period.
1) Lincoln insisted on preserving the Union so that the South would continue to pay a tariff that was used to fund the government.
2) Lincoln wasn't hostile to slavery. He didn't give a shit either way. He only pursued whatever populist view that prevailed.
3) The punitive tariff, also called Tariff of Abomination, was a hardship put on the South for decades.
1) Lincoln insisted on preserving the Union so that the South would continue to pay a tariff that was used to fund the government.
Tariffs were part of the Union, yes, but it was more than that. If some bumfuck state decided to up and leave that didn't really matter, no federal government would allow it, regardless of taxes. Nations have a strong desire to preserve themselves, and separation often involves civil war.
2) Lincoln wasn't hostile to slavery. He didn't give a shit either way. He only pursued whatever populist view that prevailed.
Complete bullshit. If he didn't care, he could have avoided the Civil War and threw his support behind allowing slavery into the new territories once elected. What IS true is that Lincoln did not view blacks favorably, and wanted them sent back to Africa. But he thought slavery was barbaric.
3) The punitive tariff, also called Tariff of Abomination, was a hardship put on the South for decades.
It wasn't even mentioned in South Carolina's causes of secession. Tariffs were a sore point, but not the bright dividing line that slavery was. Tariffs had even been reduced in recent years.
I don't think you read OP's link. You're more interested in defending what you already think you know rather than reading something that challenges it.
Quote from Lincoln: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."
Slavery was not his priority, or even an interest in his decision making.
Secession was and is legal. A state's ratifying the Constitution does not mean an enduring, unbreakable bond and obligation. Every state then and now has the right to secede, a right that many people after the Revolution believed was legal and proper. Unless you can show everyone how secession is illegal by the Constitution, I'll assume you're talking out your ass, brainwashed by the corrupt educational system you got your flawed information from. The only reason it's not done is because of the example set by the War of Northern Aggression: If you try it, you will be destroyed and humiliated. Your lands will be seized, you crops burned, your buildings burned, and niggers will rape your women and kill your men.
I skimmed it. I didn't have to delve deep into to know the bullshit game it was playing, because I've heard it before. It's the equivalent of tapdancing, focusing on peripheral issues, while handwaving the slavery issue. I presented a primary document from South Carolina that explicitly laid out there reasons for seceding, and slavery was the primary issue.
That said, just now I looked a little closer at OP's link, and it's amusing how practically every "non-slavery" issue he raises is in fact tied to slavery. The only one that clearly isn't is the tariff issue, which I've already debated at length, and which isn't even mentioned AT ALL in the South Carolina secession document.
Quote from Lincoln: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."
What you're leaving out is that Lincoln was absolutely opposed to allowing slavery to expand into the new territories:
"Wrong as we think slavery is, we can yet afford to let it alone where it is, because that much is due to the necessity arising from its actual presence in the nation; but can we, while our votes will prevent it, allow it to spread into the National Territories, and to overrun us here in these Free States? If our sense of duty forbids this, then let us stand by our duty, fearlessly and effectively."
But thanks for bolstering the case that Lincoln was unwilling to allow the Union to dissolve, and this idea that he just wanted to invade over tariffs is ridiculous.
Secession was and is legal.
Debatable. Contracts are generally legally binding, unless there's a clause for breaking it. Personally I think the North should have let the South secede. But reality disagrees with your personal, absolutist opinion. Case law is civil war. Regardless, it is immaterial to the question at hand. The country was fundamentally divided over slavery.
I think we're done, here, sparky.
Yeah, you're done. Your clay feet can't support that big bag of bullshit you're peddling.
Your article lists one state's reasons. And if you actually read it it's pretty clear that the problem isn't purely slavery, it's that the north is doing away with state sovreignty (with slavery being the bone of contention).
[ - ] chrimony 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 00:12:11 ago (+1/-0)
Your article lists one state's reasons.
I chose the first state to recede as an example. I could have chosen any number of the other states articles of secession. They all have essentially the same complaints about slavery.
And if you actually read it it's pretty clear that the problem isn't purely slavery, it's that the north is doing away with state sovreignty (with slavery being the bone of contention).
Your parenthetical remark is EXACTLY the point. The country was divided over slavery. The OP is trying to pretend it wasn't about slavery. You could argue it's about state rights, or the right to secede, or the lack of following the constitution, but those were all secondary issues to the issue dividing the nation, slavery, and the election of anti-slavery Lincoln triggered the secession. The founders knew the country was divided over slavery from the very beginning, and it was only a matter of time before the issue came to a head.
You said their reason for seceding was slavery, it wasn't, it was because their sovreignty was being eroded. Saying they seceded because of slavery is like saying Britain brexited over fishermen.
[ - ] chrimony 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 06:51:20 ago (+1/-0)
You said their reason for seceding was slavery, it wasn't, it was because their sovreignty was being eroded.
They were being eroded over slavery. It's really pathetic that on a site where people routinely toss around the words kike, nigger, and faggot, people feel the need to defend the basic bitch, unhistorical argument that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. What's next, Democrats are the real racists?
Saying they seceded because of slavery is like saying Britain brexited over fishermen.
Stupid analogy. There was no single overriding issue like slavery for Brexit that you can point to. But when it comes to secession, it was slavery, slavery, and slavery. All the other issues regarding states rights revolved around that one issue.
Stupid analogy. There was no single overriding issue like slavery for Brexit that you can point to. But when it comes to secession, it was slavery, slavery, and slavery. All the other issues regarding states rights revolved around that one issue.
No. I've read several papers from the time complaining about all kinds of other issues, including from states where slavery was not common. Federal overreach was just as real back then as it is now and targetted far more than slavery.
Anyhow, I doubt you care about anything except banging your drum so that's it for me, have a nice day.
No. I've read several papers from the time complaining about all kinds of other issues, including from states where slavery was not common.
People bitch about all kinds of stuff. So what. It was explicitly spelled out by the seceding states why they were seceding, and it revolved around slavery, triggered by the election of Lincoln. And it was the slave-holding states that seceded.
Anyhow, I doubt you care about anything except banging your drum
I'm not the one that posted this topic, am I? It's the pathetic southerners that can't let this go and keep acting like basic bitches, and can't own up to real history. Yes, the South seceded over slavery. So fucking what?
The Confederacy was a Zionist plot like the French, American and Russian Revolutions and the dissolution of Jugoslavia, nor let anyone forget the hangings that accompanied its establishment.
Re Gainesville in Confederate Texas, where forty suspected Unionists were hanged in October 1862 and where others were shot "trying to escape," as well as in Cooke County loyalists were hanged in Grayson, Wise and Denton Counties.
Most were accused of treason or insurrection, however few had actually conspired against the Confederacy, and many were innocent of the abolitionist sentiments for which they were tried.# - In other words they were "witch hunted!" Ed.
As for being "Suspected Unionists" many of the hanged men had told the secessionists they intended to abide by the just Laws and Constitution of the United States, just as their forebears had been doing since 1776.
While many of the ones who responded to the rhetoric which evoked passions more suited to football rivalries than political discourse, who raised no objections to the hangings, deserted the Confederacy in droves when war became a reality.
Re Samuel Clemens aka Mark Twain who headed North when the irregular unit he had joined was to be absorbed into General Lee's Army, who finished the war piloting a Union riverboat.
The same ones who plotted the Confederacy under cover of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, where after it was brought to fruition in response to a vast Zionist funded propaganda campaign..
Hunted down and murdered those true American patriots who had defended the Constitution in the first place, who went on saying they intended to live by rule of law - The whole thing was a scam.
Read newspapers of the day the C's were treated as a joke, if it had not been for General Beauregard's attack on the Union Fort in Charleston Harbor they would have gone on being a joke, while the Zionist press went on beating the drums of war on both sides.
And the Militaires who been prepped in the 1846 US / Mexico War, in the interests of obtaining battlefield honors and military rank, leapt at the opportunity to slaughter their fellow Americans and followed the direction to war.
The Confederate Generals should have been tried for treason and shot as traitors, Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson and Jefferson Davis no less.
Read: The Civil War in the Western Theater pdf, how irregular "riders" under the command of Confederate Colonel Pat Garrett descended on towns and settlements in Oklahoma, Texas and Kansas in particular..
Where they murdered the men, raped the women and looted business premises all under the aegis of the Confederacy, then after peace was declared Garrett was appointed Federal Marshall over the same region he and his riders had devastated.
By the time Robert E Lee surrendered on behalf of the Confederacy at Appomattox Courthouse, April 9, 1865, and after the good burghers of Richmond Virginia had requested they vacate their city, where upon in their angst they set the place afire on their way out.
The Confederacy had been reduced to a ragged band of starving outcasts who had outworn their welcome all over, while the entire mindset had been exposed as military adventurism, brought into being and fanned into flame by the Zionist press.
Before Carpetbaggers flooded into the South to claim the inheritance of those who had been duped by Zionist disinformation and propaganda, into supporting a cause that was doomed from the beginning, and the Zios were in total control!
The same way carpetbaggers from Asia, the Indian sub continent, Russia and South America are flooding into the US to claim the inheritance of those Christian whites who have been slaughtered in Zionist sponsored abortion clinics. Edit.
Thanks. I read something like this years ago and I've been looking for it ever since.
The one I read was a list of original grievances published by the secessionist states at the time. It had all kinds of interesting details, like the southern states complaining the north was subsidising their shipping companies with public money by paying for harbour infrastructure and navigation lights.
It's interesting that nowadays no one would even blink when a government did that, but back then it was crossing a line.
[ - ] 0rion 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 23:33:19 ago (+1/-0)
Donald Livingston has some GREAT videos on this subject. My best friend growing up was from Virginia, and his father always told me the South seceded over states rights and not slavery. I always laughed him off (was blue pulled at the time), but now that I've woken up I wish I had taken the time to talk with him more and ask questions.
Turns out Josey Wales was more based in reality than Old Glory. Go figure...jew media.
[ - ] 3Whuurs 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 00:33:31 ago (+1/-0)
The tariffs make every other cause combined look like a joke. The fact that the North knew they’d get all those “freed” slaves working in northern factories at a lower price then they cost as slaves, I’d say also places higher then the rest of the stuff on that list.
[ - ] Redhairin 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 01:11:03 ago (+1/-0)
And yet way too many conservatives in general, and Republicans in particular, hold Lincoln as some sort of hero to be admired....a mindset I have never been able to grasp.
[ + ] Spaceman84
[ - ] Spaceman84 6 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 19:11:34 ago (+8/-2)
https://m.riverfronttimes.com/stlouis/abraham-lincoln-was-a-jew-an-unreal-exclusive/Content?oid=2483323
Original closet homo junior senator from Illinois to ascend to the Presidency. First administration with jews in the cabinet. Protected the (((carpetbaggers))) from his own generals. 'Nondenominational Christian' who preferred The Old Testament (Torah).
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 5 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 21:17:34 ago (+6/-1)
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 22:53:56 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] 0rion
[ - ] 0rion 3 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 23:34:10 ago (+3/-0)
[ + ] 3Whuurs
[ - ] 3Whuurs 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 00:24:58 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] boekanier
[ - ] boekanier 2 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 03:32:13 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] Spaceman84
[ - ] Spaceman84 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 19:49:39 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] HughBriss
[ - ] HughBriss 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 23:07:34 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] 1Icemonkey
[ - ] 1Icemonkey 6 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 19:16:03 ago (+6/-0)
[ + ] Ifuckdolphinseverday
[ - ] Ifuckdolphinseverday 4 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 01:59:57 ago (+4/-0)
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More history;
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[ + ] NationalSocialism
[ - ] NationalSocialism 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 04:04:50 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] DonaldJTrump
[ - ] DonaldJTrump 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 08:14:12 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Stonkmar
[ - ] Stonkmar 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 10:00:42 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] SparklingWiggle
[ - ] SparklingWiggle 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 11:56:50 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Ifuckdolphinseverday
[ - ] Ifuckdolphinseverday 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 21:10:14 ago (+0/-0)
https://de.catbox.moe/1ylp7j.jpg
78% of slave owners were jews,
40% of jews owned slaves.
please think
[ + ] Stonkmar
[ - ] Stonkmar 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 5, 2021 19:05:24 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] Deleted
[ - ] deleted 2 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 19:12:29 ago (+4/-2)
[ + ] totes_magotes
[ - ] totes_magotes [op] 2 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 20:16:45 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] Deleted
[ - ] deleted 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 13:13:26 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] PostWallHelena
[ - ] PostWallHelena 2 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 21:15:02 ago (+3/-1)
New England was very much settled by mor anglo SE English (puritans).
I guess in places like NY and NJ you had a lot of dutch blood and some swedish and south-east english but also later on plenty of those celticky presbyterians from scotland, ireland, N. England. and some welsh methodists— again mostly settling further inland.
That hard r is a real shibboleth for people from more celtic parts of Britain— only SE Britain dropped their Rs in the 1600s . New Englanders drop their R, New York City speakers, and coastal Southerners. The rest was settled largely by ‘wilder’ more celtic parts of the British Isles.
[ + ] Hoobeejoo
[ - ] Hoobeejoo 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 00:02:23 ago (+1/-0)
People from New Orleans (Quit. Saying. N'aWliNs) sound very New Yorkish. A lot of southern Louisiana people sound kinda yankee.
[ + ] HeyJames
[ - ] HeyJames 2 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 21:20:38 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony 2 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 22:25:49 ago (+5/-3)
Don't believe me? Then believe the articles for secession, in which the Southern states explicitly laid out their reasons for seceding. Slavery, slavery, and more slavery. Just one example from South Carolina, the first state to secede:
"A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery."
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/secession_causes.htm
[ + ] taoV
[ - ] taoV 4 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 23:07:47 ago (+4/-0)
"encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States" 14 paragraphs, the majority of the document, follow to expand on this point alone.
"A geographical line has been drawn across the Union" referring to brinksmanship over newly created states for 40 years.
"We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them"
Slavery was clearly explained as a symptom of a larger problem, and any other interpretation is sophistry. Thanks for attending my TED talk, fuck you.
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 00:45:10 ago (+1/-1)
Rights about what? Oh, right, slavery:
"But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution."
Bull. Shit. The issue was over slavery, and surrounding issues were coached in those terms.
Thanks for playing. Collect your door prize of organic soil fertilizer on the way out.
[ + ] HughBriss
[ - ] HughBriss 4 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 23:08:44 ago (+4/-0)
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony -2 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 00:46:24 ago (+1/-3)
Lincoln insisted on preserving the Union. The South seceded after Lincoln got elected because he was hostile to slavery. The tariff was enacted only after the South seceded. Period.
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 2 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 06:14:17 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony -1 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 07:08:03 ago (+1/-2)
Yes, my bad. I got this mixed up with Lincoln blockading the South. Doesn't change the fact that slavery was the prime cause of the secession, and Lincoln was intent on preserving the Union at all costs. Also, tariffs had actually decreased in 1857 and 1846, before the first state seceded in 1860.
[ + ] cyclops1771
[ - ] cyclops1771 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 10:09:59 ago (+1/-0)
Um, no.
Overview:
https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/tariffs-and-the-american-civil-war.html
Tariff of 1816:
https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Tariff_of_1816
Tariff of 1828 (tariff of Abominations)
https://history.house.gov/Historical-Highlights/1800-1850/The-Tariff-of-Abominations/
Tariff of 1842 (Black tariff - ended up destroying thew Whig/Northern party)
https://www.carolana.com/NC/1800s/antebellum/antebellum_tariffs.html
You really went full retard on this statement. Tariff issues WERE a major concern, along with slavery. Slavery because without new slave states, they knew slavery was going away via majority rule. Hence why kansas was such a battlefield. if Kansas entered union as a Free Stste, slavery was done for. Tying that with Lincoln's election forced the secession to happen when it did.
To state that slavery was the one and only issue is false. To state that slavery wasn't an issue is false. One interesting thing to read is the Constitution of the CSA. It is almost word for word the USCON. Oddly, most differences were aroud states sovereignty and fiscal restrictions to the national covernment.
http://civildiscourse-historyblog.com/blog/2019/7/31/constitutions-of-the-united-states-and-confederate-states-a-comparison
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 16:33:34 ago (+0/-0)
I already acknowledged my mistake on tariffs in another comment, which you probably read, but chose to ignore, including the REDUCTION of tariffs in 1857 and 1846. Funny how you left that part out:
"Yes, my bad. I got this mixed up with Lincoln blockading the South. Doesn't change the fact that slavery was the prime cause of the secession, and Lincoln was intent on preserving the Union at all costs. Also, tariffs had actually decreased in 1857 and 1846, before the first state seceded in 1860."
It was the primary issue. There would have been no civil war without it. There would have been a civil war with slavery dividing the country but without tariffs dividing the country. Some northerner states were impacted negatively by tariffs, and recent cutbacks to tariffs showed that it wasn't the bright line that slavery was. Tariffs didn't even get a mention in South Carolina's declaration of causes for secession.
[ + ] HughBriss
[ - ] HughBriss 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 13:19:24 ago (+1/-0)
1) Lincoln insisted on preserving the Union so that the South would continue to pay a tariff that was used to fund the government.
2) Lincoln wasn't hostile to slavery. He didn't give a shit either way. He only pursued whatever populist view that prevailed.
3) The punitive tariff, also called Tariff of Abomination, was a hardship put on the South for decades.
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 16:53:59 ago (+0/-0)
Tariffs were part of the Union, yes, but it was more than that. If some bumfuck state decided to up and leave that didn't really matter, no federal government would allow it, regardless of taxes. Nations have a strong desire to preserve themselves, and separation often involves civil war.
Complete bullshit. If he didn't care, he could have avoided the Civil War and threw his support behind allowing slavery into the new territories once elected. What IS true is that Lincoln did not view blacks favorably, and wanted them sent back to Africa. But he thought slavery was barbaric.
It wasn't even mentioned in South Carolina's causes of secession. Tariffs were a sore point, but not the bright dividing line that slavery was. Tariffs had even been reduced in recent years.
[ + ] HughBriss
[ - ] HughBriss 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 18:43:04 ago (+0/-0)
Quote from Lincoln: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."
Slavery was not his priority, or even an interest in his decision making.
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm
Secession was and is legal. A state's ratifying the Constitution does not mean an enduring, unbreakable bond and obligation. Every state then and now has the right to secede, a right that many people after the Revolution believed was legal and proper. Unless you can show everyone how secession is illegal by the Constitution, I'll assume you're talking out your ass, brainwashed by the corrupt educational system you got your flawed information from. The only reason it's not done is because of the example set by the War of Northern Aggression: If you try it, you will be destroyed and humiliated. Your lands will be seized, you crops burned, your buildings burned, and niggers will rape your women and kill your men.
I think we're done, here, sparky.
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 19:50:45 ago (+0/-0)
I skimmed it. I didn't have to delve deep into to know the bullshit game it was playing, because I've heard it before. It's the equivalent of tapdancing, focusing on peripheral issues, while handwaving the slavery issue. I presented a primary document from South Carolina that explicitly laid out there reasons for seceding, and slavery was the primary issue.
That said, just now I looked a little closer at OP's link, and it's amusing how practically every "non-slavery" issue he raises is in fact tied to slavery. The only one that clearly isn't is the tariff issue, which I've already debated at length, and which isn't even mentioned AT ALL in the South Carolina secession document.
What you're leaving out is that Lincoln was absolutely opposed to allowing slavery to expand into the new territories:
"Wrong as we think slavery is, we can yet afford to let it alone where it is, because that much is due to the necessity arising from its actual presence in the nation; but can we, while our votes will prevent it, allow it to spread into the National Territories, and to overrun us here in these Free States? If our sense of duty forbids this, then let us stand by our duty, fearlessly and effectively."
But thanks for bolstering the case that Lincoln was unwilling to allow the Union to dissolve, and this idea that he just wanted to invade over tariffs is ridiculous.
Debatable. Contracts are generally legally binding, unless there's a clause for breaking it. Personally I think the North should have let the South secede. But reality disagrees with your personal, absolutist opinion. Case law is civil war. Regardless, it is immaterial to the question at hand. The country was fundamentally divided over slavery.
Yeah, you're done. Your clay feet can't support that big bag of bullshit you're peddling.
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 2 points 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 22:57:33 ago (+2/-0)
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 00:12:11 ago (+1/-0)
I chose the first state to recede as an example. I could have chosen any number of the other states articles of secession. They all have essentially the same complaints about slavery.
Your parenthetical remark is EXACTLY the point. The country was divided over slavery. The OP is trying to pretend it wasn't about slavery. You could argue it's about state rights, or the right to secede, or the lack of following the constitution, but those were all secondary issues to the issue dividing the nation, slavery, and the election of anti-slavery Lincoln triggered the secession. The founders knew the country was divided over slavery from the very beginning, and it was only a matter of time before the issue came to a head.
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 06:16:23 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 06:51:20 ago (+1/-0)
They were being eroded over slavery. It's really pathetic that on a site where people routinely toss around the words kike, nigger, and faggot, people feel the need to defend the basic bitch, unhistorical argument that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. What's next, Democrats are the real racists?
Stupid analogy. There was no single overriding issue like slavery for Brexit that you can point to. But when it comes to secession, it was slavery, slavery, and slavery. All the other issues regarding states rights revolved around that one issue.
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 3 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 06:54:09 ago (+3/-0)
No. I've read several papers from the time complaining about all kinds of other issues, including from states where slavery was not common. Federal overreach was just as real back then as it is now and targetted far more than slavery.
Anyhow, I doubt you care about anything except banging your drum so that's it for me, have a nice day.
[ + ] chrimony
[ - ] chrimony 0 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 07:11:24 ago (+1/-1)
People bitch about all kinds of stuff. So what. It was explicitly spelled out by the seceding states why they were seceding, and it revolved around slavery, triggered by the election of Lincoln. And it was the slave-holding states that seceded.
I'm not the one that posted this topic, am I? It's the pathetic southerners that can't let this go and keep acting like basic bitches, and can't own up to real history. Yes, the South seceded over slavery. So fucking what?
[ + ] MartinTimothy
[ - ] MartinTimothy 2 points 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 02:24:56 ago (+2/-0)*
Re Gainesville in Confederate Texas, where forty suspected Unionists were hanged in October 1862 and where others were shot "trying to escape," as well as in Cooke County loyalists were hanged in Grayson, Wise and Denton Counties.
Most were accused of treason or insurrection, however few had actually conspired against the Confederacy, and many were innocent of the abolitionist sentiments for which they were tried.# - In other words they were "witch hunted!" Ed.
As for being "Suspected Unionists" many of the hanged men had told the secessionists they intended to abide by the just Laws and Constitution of the United States, just as their forebears had been doing since 1776.
While many of the ones who responded to the rhetoric which evoked passions more suited to football rivalries than political discourse, who raised no objections to the hangings, deserted the Confederacy in droves when war became a reality.
Re Samuel Clemens aka Mark Twain who headed North when the irregular unit he had joined was to be absorbed into General Lee's Army, who finished the war piloting a Union riverboat.
The same ones who plotted the Confederacy under cover of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, where after it was brought to fruition in response to a vast Zionist funded propaganda campaign..
Hunted down and murdered those true American patriots who had defended the Constitution in the first place, who went on saying they intended to live by rule of law - The whole thing was a scam.
Read newspapers of the day the C's were treated as a joke, if it had not been for General Beauregard's attack on the Union Fort in Charleston Harbor they would have gone on being a joke, while the Zionist press went on beating the drums of war on both sides.
And the Militaires who been prepped in the 1846 US / Mexico War, in the interests of obtaining battlefield honors and military rank, leapt at the opportunity to slaughter their fellow Americans and followed the direction to war.
The Confederate Generals should have been tried for treason and shot as traitors, Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson and Jefferson Davis no less.
Read: The Civil War in the Western Theater pdf, how irregular "riders" under the command of Confederate Colonel Pat Garrett descended on towns and settlements in Oklahoma, Texas and Kansas in particular..
Where they murdered the men, raped the women and looted business premises all under the aegis of the Confederacy, then after peace was declared Garrett was appointed Federal Marshall over the same region he and his riders had devastated.
By the time Robert E Lee surrendered on behalf of the Confederacy at Appomattox Courthouse, April 9, 1865, and after the good burghers of Richmond Virginia had requested they vacate their city, where upon in their angst they set the place afire on their way out.
The Confederacy had been reduced to a ragged band of starving outcasts who had outworn their welcome all over, while the entire mindset had been exposed as military adventurism, brought into being and fanned into flame by the Zionist press.
Before Carpetbaggers flooded into the South to claim the inheritance of those who had been duped by Zionist disinformation and propaganda, into supporting a cause that was doomed from the beginning, and the Zios were in total control!
The same way carpetbaggers from Asia, the Indian sub continent, Russia and South America are flooding into the US to claim the inheritance of those Christian whites who have been slaughtered in Zionist sponsored abortion clinics. Edit.
[ + ] NosebergShekelman
[ - ] NosebergShekelman 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 10:21:56 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Jiggggg
[ - ] Jiggggg 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 21:45:25 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] mattsixteen24
[ - ] mattsixteen24 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 22:29:06 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] spasswerk
[ - ] spasswerk 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 22:46:05 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Broc_Liath
[ - ] Broc_Liath 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 22:53:24 ago (+1/-0)
The one I read was a list of original grievances published by the secessionist states at the time. It had all kinds of interesting details, like the southern states complaining the north was subsidising their shipping companies with public money by paying for harbour infrastructure and navigation lights.
It's interesting that nowadays no one would even blink when a government did that, but back then it was crossing a line.
[ + ] 0rion
[ - ] 0rion 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 2, 2021 23:33:19 ago (+1/-0)
Turns out Josey Wales was more based in reality than Old Glory. Go figure...jew media.
[ + ] 3Whuurs
[ - ] 3Whuurs 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 00:33:31 ago (+1/-0)
The fact that the North knew they’d get all those “freed” slaves working in northern factories at a lower price then they cost as slaves, I’d say also places higher then the rest of the stuff on that list.
[ + ] Redhairin
[ - ] Redhairin 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 01:11:03 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] Stonkmar
[ - ] Stonkmar 1 point 3.5 yearsDec 3, 2021 09:52:55 ago (+1/-0)
[ + ] allahead
[ - ] allahead 0 points 3.4 yearsDec 6, 2021 05:56:04 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] allahead
[ - ] allahead 0 points 3.4 yearsDec 6, 2021 06:16:55 ago (+0/-0)
[ + ] totes_magotes
[ - ] totes_magotes [op] 0 points 3.4 yearsDec 6, 2021 17:05:09 ago (+0/-0)